Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class

Thomas;

After dropping the motorcycle on I-95 last May, I promised my wife no more risks. Caging the car keeps that promise.

The plan is to start with a bar, with weld is strengthening and some additional "X" braces. Then as my experience and speeds grow, to add a weld in cage kit, to keep strengthening the car and make it more safe as the speeds increase.

The car may be street legal, but it will be a track car; so I don't need to worry about its streetability.

As I get better with the car, a quickener will be looked into; but as the 2.5 rack comes with the TT to part out, it only makes sense to swap the 3.0 with it when I am changing the subframe out.

No build decisions are being made off of the S1 Gruppe B cars. Only the "spirit" of the build. Homage to a time that was. Not fanboy anything. Not interested in winning races at all, but having fun. Too old and heavy to be competitive anymore in this lifetime. That's why I picked RallyCross to begin with.

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NGTD
Get a 5 spd from a 2.0L Golf or Jetta. 4.33:1 FD (IIRC).

As John points out over and over, it's about Torque multiplication.

I don't think it is..I don't think any 2.0 0r 1.8 VW has gone below 4,2 and that was only the diesel..
And I've searched.. Little 1300 Golf II had a 4.47 but that was a little smaller than 020 box thing

In any case it's not needed in grass-o-cross.First is short enough, second is short too.

Stock engine, stock box, maybe a multi--plate clutch diff but I think every car needs a multi plate clutch diff. Street/Road/whatever.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
DanielSL
Thomas;

After dropping the motorcycle on I-95 last May, I promised my wife no more risks. Caging the car keeps that promise.

The plan is to start with a bar, with weld is strengthening and some additional "X" braces. Then as my experience and speeds grow, to add a weld in cage kit, to keep strengthening the car and make it more safe as the speeds increase.

The car may be street legal, but it will be a track car; so I don't need to worry about its streetability.

As I get better with the car, a quickener will be looked into; but as the 2.5 rack comes with the TT to part out, it only makes sense to swap the 3.0 with it when I am changing the subframe out.

No build decisions are being made off of the S1 Gruppe B cars. Only the "spirit" of the build. Homage to a time that was. Not fanboy anything. Not interested in winning races at all, but having fun. Too old and heavy to be competitive anymore in this lifetime. That's why I picked RallyCross to begin with.

Cages are built from the front back.

After your ranting yesterday I am loathe to say anything to you since you react to excellent clear serious advice like a spoiled child but and think screaming at one person is cathartic or something but EVERYBODY here is saying the same thing which sum total is: Everything you have planned out is wrong and wrong headed... We have done this stuff..Thomas is no transitioning from a couple of years of playing grass-o-cross to rally, Pete has done this grass-o-cross stuff for decades and allegedly good at the driving part and his record at being thoughtful and smart at mechanical things is excellent..


This place was founded to be a place to DISCUSS like ADULTS......car builds and driving ideas, it was founded by 5-6 guys who all are very good analytical minds--not just about jerking off or onto cars...we founders were none of us by any strectch materialists or consumer types, nor were/are any hipsters or trustafarians, just clear thinking guys who have feet on the ground and a good backbone....and who can argue their points without tantrums and screaming.


It was not started as a place merely to be a place for guys to show off what they think is their cool shit... Plenty of places elsewhere for that.
So maybe I was or we were wrong with what we envisaged, but discussion is not some tame OOOOoooo . Ahhhhhh at a series of photos or words.

Let me help you with what discussion means in the best sense

discussion (n.) Look up discussion at Dictionary.com
mid-14c., "examination, investigation, judicial trial," from Old French discussion
"discussion, examination, investigation, legal trial," from Late Latin
discussionem (nominative discussio) "examination, discussion," in classical Latin, "a shaking," from discussus, past participle of discutere "strike asunder, break up," from dis- "apart" (see dis-) + quatere "to shake" (see quash). Meaning "a talking over, debating" in English first recorded mid-15c. Sense evolution in Latin appears to have been from "smash apart" to "scatter, disperse," then in post-classical times (via the mental process involved) to "investigate, examine," then to "debate."



How about "discuss"?

discuss (v.) Look up discuss at Dictionary.com
mid-14c., "to examine, investigate," from Latin discuss-, past participle stem of discutere "to dash to pieces, agitate," in Late Latin and Vulgar Latin also "to discuss, investigate" (see discussion). Meaning "examine by argument, debate" is from mid-15c. Related: Discussed; discussing.


Didn't see anything about just nodding the head and murmuring vague approval of really truly strange ideas..did you?

What should be self-evident is if you a) say your intentions are to go do something--in this case Grass-o-cross----then you subsequent posts will be read in light of that and naturally, and logically, there WILL BE DISCUSSION...

We have had a few previous examples of guys who come here, make pronouncments and then post "Brilliant ideas" like the moron from Phoenix who was going to make his 240 Nissan into a 450 hp killer machine---the little racist shit head soon left when it was pointed out how absurd his idea was for the $37.88 budget he had..

We had some genius who decided he was going to make a killer beast Dogge micro van into an ultimate spec 4G63 AWD powered beast---because from certain angle it looked just like a Lancia Delta Intergrale so what did we think of using struts off a VR6 and knuckles off a Eclipse and calipers off a ....."
He owned a Galant and an Eclipse....one cannot be "polite" to people that have made big plans in their isolation and then post on a discussion forum those ideas when they are as absurd as the guy owing one excellent car, one OK car and saying this


"Looks like" this


The posting is an invitation to discuss.

Got it?

As for all the others you talked to and got email from about how bad and mean I am:

Fuck them. There are a lot of very dishonest and immoral people with their own set of agendas out there many who have only fleeting and limited experience and want to sell THEIR stuff who are running around perpetually butt-hurt because they have done nothing unusual or remarkable ever in this --or any other---sport and will say anything.


Better a clear conscious than a good reputation.

Now:
roll bar.

No point and doing that first means throw it away when it come time to do a full cage..
And if there's no point for a roll bar, there is less point for a cage...

Just like everybody else is trying to tell you..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

After your eruption taking up storage space while being 80% or more useless to a build thread, and once again wasting time and energy; I can only say that cages do not have to be built from the front back.

I've built almost a half dozen IT cars for myself and my teammates over the course of the 90's. All of those cars with the exception of one, started with Autopower competition roll bars, and then progressed using their weld in cage kits, designed to work with their bars. Those were all VW Rabbit GTI's. Mark II Golf GTi's, and BMW 2002's.

Also in the 90's, at the Porsche performance shop I worked at, we were an Autopower dealer. I installed countless roll bars, bolt in cages, weld in cages, and weld in cage kits on top of competition bars. Those all passed POC, PCA, and SCCA scrutineers without fail.

Again, for a RallyCross build - Not a staqe rally car; a bar for safety, to reduce risk, and then progressing to a cage when needed, will be fine for the end goal; which is to provide safety and stay in budget.

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DanielSL
Again, for a RallyCross build - Not a stage rally car; a bar for safety, to reduce risk, and then progressing to a cage when needed, will be fine for the end goal; which is to provide safety and stay in budget.

But why do you need/want a rollcage/rollbar for rallycross? When do you foresee it being needed? If safety is your true motivation for this, then it's not worth it, save your money. Rallycross cars dont hit trees, or cars, you aren't going to roll a golf. The roll bar is more likely to cause injury than prevent it if your intention is for rallycross only.

IT

Autopower..

Ooooooh cred.

Look tough guy, you're already now on the shit list for writing reams of pointless crap and then going apeshit when I write "I think he might be pulling our collective legs"..

Trolls are everywhere..your whole plan or "build" is so far off base, so over-the-top-pointless and flat wierd that it SEEMED like you were maybe trying to troll us.. It IS just grass-o-cross..

Now I see though. You're an IT class guy...

OK that trumps anything I know....Met my match. You win the Inter-net.
I'll slink off now.....


It class and Autopower cages

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Thomas Kimsey

Quote
DanielSL
Again, for a RallyCross build - Not a stage rally car; a bar for safety, to reduce risk, and then progressing to a cage when needed, will be fine for the end goal; which is to provide safety and stay in budget.

But why do you need/want a rollcage/rollbar for rallycross? When do you foresee it being needed? If safety is your true motivation for this, then it's not worth it, save your money. Rallycross cars dont hit trees, or cars, you aren't going to roll a golf. The roll bar is more likely to cause injury than prevent it if your intention is for rallycross only.

Every rollover I've seen was slow and boring and the glass didn't even break until the car stopped. One of 'em didn't even BREAK any glass.

Unfortunately I saw three rollovers happen at one event. (The Event what Shall Not Be Named, apparently) I have, for the record, never seen a rollover happen at a local event.

It's not rollovers at 20-40mph you have to worry about, it's leaving the road at 50+ and hitting a stump/tree/wall/etc. Which is not going to happen.

I can respect that you want a cage (which is, really, legal in Stock, too, you just have to show an effort to minimize the amount of interior removal for cage install) but my experience suggests that it wouldn't do any good for the types of incidents you're going to risk encountering.

FWIW, when I used to play with Golves, the economy gear 3.67 trans was just about perfect with 185/65-14 tires. 1st gear was enough for 90% of the time and on faster courses, a shift to 2nd wasn't really worth the time so I'd just bounce the rev limiter, whatever it was on an 8v Digifant car. Until I discovered that doing that pumps all the oil into the cylinder head, where it dumps out the breather system onto the exhaust manifold, which can be exciting.

I'm fairly certain that the MF nationals was won in '13 by a gentleman with a stock 8v and stock gearing and such. I think it was '13, anyway, but it was definitely all stock because he had about a month to put the car together. It's not about power, it's power delivery. Likewise, don't worry about autocross mentality about 5% stiffer in the rear quarters so the suspension responds better blah blah blah... The nature of the surfaces makes that all moot, you'd do better to learn to place your car better and read the course. Not the layout and theoretical lines, the actual ground and seeing the areas were grip is, where rough areas can upset the car, and avoid them without losing more time than just plowing through.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 12:46PM by Pete.

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Thomas Kimsey

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DanielSL
Again, for a RallyCross build - Not a stage rally car; a bar for safety, to reduce risk, and then progressing to a cage when needed, will be fine for the end goal; which is to provide safety and stay in budget.

But why do you need/want a rollcage/rollbar for rallycross? When do you foresee it being needed? If safety is your true motivation for this, then it's not worth it, save your money. Rallycross cars dont hit trees, or cars, you aren't going to roll a golf. The roll bar is more likely to cause injury than prevent it if your intention is for rallycross only.

Thomas;

As stated; the primary focus is safety. This is to keep a promise to my wife to minimize, reduce, and remove risk from my hobbies. If none of you can understand keeping a wife happy and content to participate in motorsports; then there is nothing further to be said.

I have both witnessed, and seen in threads, on rallycross sites, and builds the need for a cage. RallyCross can have rollovers, and does have rollovers. If 1% of 1% was the chance of it ever happening, that is enough of a reason to cage the car.
I have had a GT2 put in the wall at Daytona, by a badly driven Viper, and walked away to sit out the rest of the race. I have been to the Climb to the Clouds and watched cars have "offs". I have had plenty of "offs" myself in road course racing, both open and closed wheel.
I don't need a "reason" to make my car as safe as it can be, for the money I want to spend to do so. So moot point. Stop talking about it. Please move to more important points.

Pete;

Excellent write up and good points. Thanks for respecting the points behind my decision on the cage. It is appreciated.

A lot of my experience comes from AutoX. I ran Solo I and II, and did a few events in ProSolo. But that was all 20+ years ago. So much has changed... So the entire last paragraph hits home.

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DanielSL

I have had a GT2 put in the wall at Daytona, by a badly driven Viper, and walked away to sit out the rest of the race. I have been to the Climb to the Clouds and watched cars have "offs". I have had plenty of "offs" myself in road course racing, both open and closed wheel.

What value does this add to this discussion other than gloating about your racing history? I never said anything about not needing a cage in anything other than rallycross. There is a definite need for roll cages in the world of motorsport. If it really makes a difference to you I too have driven fully caged cars on road courses before, but I don't see why that matters. As Pete said, rallyx speeds are low, cars are designed to protect you and a modern car like a MK4 golf will do a fine job of keeping you safe stock. If the SCCA thought for a second that rallycross was too dangerous to do without a cage they would never allow it. Have you considered the danger of driving a caged car on the street without a helmet? Probably a lot more "risk" than rallycrossing without one. Get into a small fenderbender testing out suspension or some change to the car and you could bang your head on the cage. But then if you are considering running a 4+ point harness then you will want a cage as a 4+ point harness does not allow your body to move out of the way in the event of a roof collapse. I'm not purposely giving you a hard time about this, just trying to make you think a little.

Also witnessed a rollover at the last event I went to, but a VW Golf is a bit different than a lifted ford ranger.

Thomas;

The only "value" added to the discussion is that I have been in "offs", in "shunts", and in total wrecks. Unlike what John and others have tried to imply; my reasoning for anything on MY build is not from fanboy ideas, watching F&F movies too many times, or simply for trying to look cool. I know the pros and cons of bars and cages. I've installed them, modified them, used them, and been saved by them.

There was no gloating implied or otherwise. If I wanted to gloat, I would not waste time with amateur level racing accomplishments.

On another note; one of the reasons I went from the get-go with a bar/cage thought process is that to have any type of car control you need to be properly strapped in. That means in my case, either a 5 or 6 point harness system. Because of that, and the danger of roof collapse; a bar/cage was designated a must have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 02:10PM by DanielSL.

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DanielSL
On another note; one of the reasons I went from the get-go with a bar/cage thought process is that to have any type of car control you need to be properly strapped in. That means in my case, either a 5 or 6 point harness system. Because of that, and the danger of roof collapse; a bar/cage was designated a must have.

Reasons... they are good. I notice almost no difference in car control at rallycross speeds between a standard v type belt and a 6 point harness like you do with autocross. Switching the seat made a huge difference though.

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john vanlandingham

Quote
NGTD
Get a 5 spd from a 2.0L Golf or Jetta. 4.33:1 FD (IIRC).

As John points out over and over, it's about Torque multiplication.

I don't think it is..I don't think any 2.0 0r 1.8 VW has gone below 4,2 and that was only the diesel..
And I've searched.. Little 1300 Golf II had a 4.47 but that was a little smaller than 020 box thing

In any case it's not needed in grass-o-cross.First is short enough, second is short too.

Stock engine, stock box, maybe a multi--plate clutch diff but I think every car needs a multi plate clutch diff. Street/Road/whatever.

Sorry it's 4.24:1. I was going off memory.

I'm thinking that with everything out of the car, and since I'm doing the clutch anyways, this would be a good time to do the LSD. Any of you guys who run FWD have a favorite between Quaife, Poloquin, or Wavetrac? I have a lot of experience with Quaife from the IT days, but with all the time that has gone by, is there a better option available now?