urr Andrew Sutherland Mod Moderator Location: Studio City CA / Camas WA Join Date: 02/22/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 275 Rally Car: Subaru, EVO, Honda, Husky |
I'm working on building a new gear set for the civic. I built a table to compare the current set-up with a close ratio gear set that I'm looking at. The biggest issue with the current gears was that 1st was pretty much unusable as I always start in 2nd on stage, and the spread between 5th and 6th seemed too big. I rarely saw 6th on stage above 6k rpm.
The off the shelf close ration box tops out at 109 mph, which I think is 10 mph too low since we have fast stages in the US. My options are to raise the final drive or just go with a slightly taller 5th gear. Both have pros and cons. Any thoughts from people with experience?? |
fliz Chad Eixenberger Ultra Moderator Location: Grafton, WI Join Date: 02/01/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 484 Rally Car: 1988 VW Golf #687 |
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urr Andrew Sutherland Mod Moderator Location: Studio City CA / Camas WA Join Date: 02/22/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 275 Rally Car: Subaru, EVO, Honda, Husky |
G5 civic I saw a fair amount of time over 100 at Olympus....same with Reno, Idaho, Prescott etc... Ideally, I'd have two gearboxes, normal and fast, and swap as necessary. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2016 05:31PM by urr. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
That's the thing: how much actual minutes and seconds is above 110 mph? Way back in the 40mm restrictor days---the best days of Group A----my one time co-driver and I went to 1993 Monte Carlo Rally They were 1.3 liter pushrod motors.. Ola Stromber and Stig Blomqvist had consulted on the gears..Ola is a long term friend...he told me about the whole thing. Here is the results..Good fields with plenty of people capable of winning.. It was colder than hell but clean dry asphalt---a huge advantage for high powered cars and those 40mm motors made an honest 390-395 hp 61. Rallye Automobile de Monte-Carlo 1993 21. 1. – 27. 1. 1993 • asphalt - snow 593,62 km • Other years WRC #1 - PWRC #1 Stage results Itinerary Entry list Retirement Penalty Info Stats Stage times Models Final results All PWRC M 2L All A5 A7 A8 N1 N2 N3 N4 Final results finished: 86 (86 on list) Time Penalty Diff. Diff. pr. Km/h s/km 1. #3 flagflag Auriol Didier - Occelli Bernard icon Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD (ST185) Toyota Castrol Team A8 M 6:13:43---SIX HOURS! THIRTEEN MINUTES 95.3 2. #6 flagflag Delecour François - Grataloup Daniel icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth Ford Motor Co Ltd A8 M 6:13:58 +15 +15 95.2 0.03 3. #2 flagflag Biasion Miki - Siviero Tiziano icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth Ford Motor Co Ltd A8 M 6:16:59 +3:16 +3:01 94.5 0.33 4. #8 flagflag Eriksson Kenneth - Parmander Staffan icon Mitsubishi Lancer Evo I Mitsubishi Ralliart A8 M 6:31:30 +17:47 +14:31 91.0 1.80 5. #7 flagflag Kankkunen Juha - Piironen Juha icon Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD (ST185) Toyota Castrol Team A8 M 6:32:43 +19:00 +1:13 90.7 1.92 6. #4 flagflag Schwarz Armin - Grist Nicky icon Mitsubishi Lancer Evo I Mitsubishi Ralliart A8 M 6:39:45 +26:02 +7:02 89.1 2.63 7. #15 flagflag Burri Olivier - Hofmann Christophe icon Ford Sierra RS Cosworth 4x4 A8 6:51:03 +37:20 +11:18 86.6 3.77 8. #10 flagflag Thiry Bruno - Prévot Stéphane icon Opel Astra GSi 16V Opel Team Belgium A7 2L 6:54:08 +40:25 +3:05 86.0 4.09 9. #16 flagflag Spiliotis Christophe - Thibaud Hervé icon Lancia Delta HF Integrale N4 6:56:24 +42:41 +2:16 85.5 4.31 10. #29 flagflag Serpaggi Jean-Baptiste - Serpaggi Francis icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4 2L 6:57:58 +44:15 +1:34 85.2 4.47 11. #22 flagflag Ballet Jean-Pierre - Dupont Jean-Pierre icon Peugeot 309 GTI Peugeot Sport A7 7:00:55 +47:12 +2:57 84.6 4.77 12. #14 flagflag Holderied Isolde - Thörner Christina icon Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 N4 7:08:44 +55:01 +7:49 83.1 5.56 13. #19 flagflag Driano Christine - Lallement Marie-Christine icon Citroën ZX 16V A7 2L 7:08:47 +55:04 +3 83.1 5.57 14. #1 flagflag Sainz Carlos - Moya Luis icon Lancia Delta HF Integrale Jolly Club A8 M 7:09:07 +55:24 +20 83.0 5.60 15. #25 flagflag Dionisio Ermanno - Barone Maurizio icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4 7:09:35 +55:52 +28 82.9 5.65 16. #24 flagflag Aymé Jean-Paul - Aymé Brigitte icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4 7:13:56 +1:00:13 +4:21 82.1 6.09 17. #72 flagflag Phillips Franck - Peyret Olivier icon Ford Sierra RS Cosworth N4 7:14:24 +1:00:41 +28 82.0 6.13 18. #9 flagflag Sibera Pavel - Gross Petr icon Škoda Favorit 136L Škoda Motorsport A5 2L 7:15:58 +1:02:15 +1:34 81.7 6.29 19. #146 flagflag Colonna D'Istria Philippe - Altana Patrick icon Nissan Sunny GTI-R N4 7:18:59 +1:05:16 +3:01 81.1 6.60 20. #39 flagflag Farnaud Michel - Giraud Thierry icon Renault 5 GT Turbo N4 7:23:21 +1:09:38 +4:22 80.3 7.04 21. #94 flagflag Dumas Maurice - Diague Jean-Paul icon Peugeot 309 GTI A7 2L 7:23:24 +1:09:41 +3 80.3 7.04 22. #44 flagflag Rubiolo Philippe - Pascal Laurent icon Renault Clio 16S N3 7:24:38 +1:10:55 +1:14 80.1 7.17 23. #11 flagflag Triner Emil - Klíma Jiří icon Škoda Favorit 136L Škoda Motorsport A5 2L 7:25:00 +1:11:17 Very fast in many places. Those Skodas would do maximum speeds of 140km/hr just short of 90mph Entry list total entries 170 (178 on list) Sure maybe they would have done a little better with more top speed.. But they sure beat a lotta guys with just 90mph... I did ask one of the Ford guys what they were geared for and it was about 190 km/hr or about 117mph.. Personally I think if a car can hit 105 then fine....Its just revs at that point. Rev the bugger. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Godlike Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
Seen it time and time again in many different venues, rally should be absolutely no different, gearing and suspension should be at their limit 10% of the time otherwise they are not seeing their full potential. When I say 10% I mean on 10% of the straights you hit the rev limiter and on 10% of the hard hits/landings you should get into the bumpstops on both ends of the car. Everyone talks 120mph, but never time to cover distance with hundreds of 2-3-4-5-4-3-2 over the course of an event. You don't need 2 gear sets go with option #1 and it's a Honda, rev the piss out of it if you need to. Staying at or near the limit and actually being able to enter the braking zone at a fixed speed on the long runs will have you lifting later since there won't be the normal mental game as to how fast am I going how much room do I need. Someone must have data here as to how much time they've spent above even 100mph on the super fast rallies, bet it's in the seconds at most hard to shoot for that as a must have when you spend at least an hour under that speed. You don't have 300 hp and you don't weigh 3000# don't worry about what a blubaru does, a 2000# 170hp car geared for 110mph makes a lot of sense.
Power means nothing if you cannot control it! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 09:26PM by ElectroTech. |
Erik Christiansen Erik Christiansen Senior Moderator Location: Culver City, CA Join Date: 05/16/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 73 Rally Car: VW GTI |
With those numbers I also vote for option #1. They are actually very close to the 8v VWMS ratios I am currently putting in my car:
1 - 44mph 2 - 61mph 3 - 77mph 4 - 94mph 5 - 106mph I will also add that there is actually a pretty big difference between reaching 100mph and 110mph on stage. No doubt you will top 100mph at Prescott and HDT. I don't think you will hit 100mph for very long (if at all) on the current Idaho roads. Definitely not at Gorman, Mendocino and Frazier Mountain. I'm curious what your redline is and what tire rolling circumference you are using in your calcs. In my experience, the actual rolling circumference has been slightly smaller than published values. For the 175/70R15 Pirellis I am currently running, the published rolling circumference is 1876mm, however when I match rpm to speed from GPS I back out a rolling circumference of 1820mm. It could be an inaccurate tachometer, or maybe my tire pressure is lower than spec? It is enough to make a difference of a few mph at the top end. This is measured at 60mph. I don't know if centrifugal forces will make the tire expand at higher speeds, in which case the rolling circumference would grow, giving you back those few mph. I haven't had the opportunity to do a calibration test at 100mph. Edited to add: I would avoid option #2. You will hate that 4-5 shift every time you need to go over 93mph. It's a wider spread than your current 4-5 gears. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2016 10:47AM by Erik Christiansen. |
urr Andrew Sutherland Mod Moderator Location: Studio City CA / Camas WA Join Date: 02/22/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 275 Rally Car: Subaru, EVO, Honda, Husky |
Thanks....some good input. My numbers are based on a 7800 rpm and 25" tires (I ran 185's the last two events and moving to 195's going forward).
Gear spread is definitely important in a 170hp car, especially in the higher gears, but it's not as big a deal with my current set-up. I agree that option #2, the spread between 4/5 would be annoying. One thing that I've learned from racing the SRT-4 years ago is that conventional rally wisdom doesn't always work on our un-conventional rally roads and cars. Anyone know the ratios in the R2's? |
Aaron Luptak Aaron Luptak Godlike Moderator Location: SLC Join Date: 02/15/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 776 Rally Car: Civic... |
(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)
KF7RWG http://www.utahrallygroup.com |
Aaron Luptak Aaron Luptak Godlike Moderator Location: SLC Join Date: 02/15/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 776 Rally Car: Civic... |
ah, found it again: http://racing.teamfloral.be/images/racing-parts/R2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf
KF7RWG http://www.utahrallygroup.com |
Aaron Luptak Aaron Luptak Godlike Moderator Location: SLC Join Date: 02/15/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 776 Rally Car: Civic... |
one more, the 5-speed ratios for the GrN Fiesta ST (h-pattern, instead of sequential):
http://racing.teamfloral.be/images/racing-parts/ST/Sadev_Gear_Kit.pdf 1) 34/12 2.833:1 2) 27/13 2.077:1 3) 23/14 1.643:1 4) 23/17 1.353:1 5) 22/19 1.158:1 FD 47/11 4.273:1 KF7RWG http://www.utahrallygroup.com |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Nice box and details..for a n.a motor 1,6 to 2,0 John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Godlike Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
Gadzukes, someone call MSport, their car only does 101 mph they are never going to win anything. I mean the R2 Fiesta is so special in every other respect that it somehow makes up for the wrong gearing, how can it not go 120 it's unfathomable....... Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Predictably about 15.5 mph per 1000 in top gear.. Add 1 more thousand Are Pea Ems, silly goose. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Godlike Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
She only goes 6500........as per dem who makes it! Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
What? da fuq? The street car? the Wawwy caw? A modern 1600 that only does 6500? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |