Cage construction questions

I've been looking over the rules in the CARS and RA regs lately about how they spec the cage requirements.

I am sure I am confused, but are most cages in North America overbuilt? The rules usually say something like "must conform to fia appendix j" or section 253. It seems like cages that are offered in Europe don't have a lot of bars that you see in North America, but are stated to meet "appendix j/section 253"

As a driver now, perusing the rules for my then 5 minutes makes my eyes glaze over, but I am really curious

You know, if you want to listen to John rant, you could just call him.

A lot of cages are overbuilt.

The issue are the statements, "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002", "cars
homologated as from 01.01.2007", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2005", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2006", "cars homologated as from 01.01.2014", "homologated as from 01.01.2001"

US entities require all cars meet cage requirements equivalent to cars homologated from the most recent specification. Well, it's a grey area with NRS kinda as they do allow cages built to FIA 253 certification so if you can find your homologation papers you could build a simpler cage and be within the rules. However, seeing as I've heard of no less than three scrutineers giving designs within the most recent ruleset shit, I think it's not worth the head ache.

RA 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of current FIA Appendix J Article 25.
Implies that you must always use the newest rule.

Whereas the FIA allows a lower spec on the older models, for example, E36 BMW homologation could be 1995, GC Impreza could be 1993, Merkur/Ford Sierra could be 1987. The older cars are allowed a simpler cage design overseas.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
The issue are the statements, "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002", "cars
homologated as from 01.01.2007", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2005", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2006", "cars homologated as from 01.01.2014", "homologated as from 01.01.2001"

US entities require all cars meet cage requirements equivalent to cars homologated from the most recent specification. Well, it's a grey area with NRS kinda as they do allow cages built to FIA 253 certification so if you can find your homologation papers you could build a simpler cage and be within the rules. However, seeing as I've heard of no less than three scrutineers giving designs within the most recent ruleset shit, I think it's not worth the head ache.

RA 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of current FIA Appendix J Article 25.
Implies that you must always use the newest rule.

Whereas the FIA allows a lower spec on the older models, for example, E36 BMW homologation could be 1995, GC Impreza could be 1993, Merkur/Ford Sierra could be 1987. The older cars are allowed a simpler cage design overseas.

Depends. Varies coountry to country and in Sweden for example, VOC has its min requirements, Group E (stock stock stock Economy) has its rules, Appendix K Histroic has its min, 2wd "Grupp H" is far stricter---last year or so..

Suffice it to say, requiring the absolute latest FULL WRC spec for cars with fractions of the performance is stupid..and it has been PRIMARILY a matter of some people just digging in their heels to assert authority. Clearly.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

When my car stopped tumbling and dropped out of the sky onto the windshield at Oregon Trail that one time, I did not feel like the roll cage was overbuilt...

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tdrrally
john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too

The spec isn't really extraneous. Rally isn't easy, road racing is, comparatively. Rally takes a level of perseverance that isn't present in most of the population. Just look at the shear number of people with build threads here that have never seen a stage.
I've been having too much fun last the years with my E36. 23+ hours of road racing, three gravel hill climbs, a handful of testing days both track and gravel. To take this car to a rally I would have an additional list of 20-30 items. Many are not simple bolt or nut things and require fab, welding, electrical, and mechanical skills.
Anyone can buy a street car and go race in time attack.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
tdrrally
john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too

The spec isn't really extraneous. Rally isn't easy, road racing is, comparatively. Rally takes a level of perseverance that isn't present in most of the population. Just look at the shear number of people with build threads here that have never seen a stage.

But I do agree...--especially the comparative part.

Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...

Grant actually is the perfect person to talk about both of these situations since he has chosen other motorsports over rally and knows why, AND has sold off (or is trying to sell off) an unfinished rebuild project rather than finishing it or letting it languish.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Quote
john vanlandingham
Suffice it to say, requiring the absolute latest FULL WRC spec for cars with fractions of the performance is stupid..and it has been PRIMARILY a matter of some people just digging in their heels to assert authority. Clearly.

That would be stupid.
Fortunatley CARS, RA, and NASA only require cages that meet Appendix J 253-8, which is the Group A/N spec for cages. It is also worth noting that the top level cars in North America (Rocket/VTCar/CanJam) likely have every bit the potential of a 2016 spec WRC car.

I had an interesting conversation with someone a while ago about homologated cages as well. It centered around the fact that there were differences in the cages for R2 and R5 fiestas, and that a Fiesta ST likely was closer in performance to an R5 than a R2, but could run the 'weaker' cage legally.

At the end of the day, I've been in (and have seen) enough crashes that I know cages are not someplace to be skimped on. Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

http://www.cusco.co.jp/en/pdf/FIA%20Rollcage%20FT86%20BRZ.pdf

not inexpensive but interesting.

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

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Not Trolling
Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.

This is what I was getting at.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...

I think only two rallies driven, three as codriver and five seasons of hill climbs, one as a codriver. Three endurance road race events, around 23 hours. Service crew for too many to count off top of head. Up to three cars at a time, 100% finish record since our last DNF in 2005.

I regret nothing. I could have done the full national championship with my capital contributions to Rally.Build in the last 18 months but am investing it in the sport in a different way. We have gone from three cars to nearly 20 active here. Every Colorado customer you have except one has come from my direct referral. We gave over $1000 in cash to local teams last year.
Every month I wonder if I should stick to smarter expenditures/investments and race more. I persevere and choose growth over self satisfaction. So yes, I've still only driven in two events and if that is your metric for whatever then discount anything I say. Now I need a nap. Late night last night with new puppy, early morning with kids, and late shop night ahead. Cold turkey on cigs and beer 7 days ago so have been on edge and tiredness does not help. Blew up on a security guard over stupid glow sticks last night.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
Not Trolling

I had an interesting conversation with someone (? did you forget their name? I've had many interesting conversations with people about homologated cages...2 actually even knew something..Doubtless because they actually made homologated cages. Imagine that) a while ago about homologated cages as well. It centered around the fact that there were differences in the cages for R2 and R5 fiestas, and that a Fiesta ST likely was closer in performance to an R5 than a R2, but could run the 'weaker' cage legally.

At the end of the day, I've been in (and have seen) enough crashes that I know cages are not someplace to be skimped on. Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.

Fortunatley CARS, RA, and NASA only require cages that meet Appendix J 253-8

I don't think any sane person would suggest "skimping" on a cage.. And I don't think that I've ever seen anybody suggesting that...

And I would not be particularly adverse to the whole of Art 253 being the template...
But--and you know thus full well----intentionally ignoring all the sections up to
"For cars first homologated 1 Jan 2007 and onward, the following elements are required"

and intentionally pretending the perfectly acceptable specs applicable PRIOR to that doesn't exist or are inadequate (despite them mandating much safer cages that we in North America had for decades---and oddly had few cages collapse), that is a lot to expect people to swallow whole.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.