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Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?

Posted by sudoprime 
hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 05, 2018 02:16PM
I remember when the CARS had this anti-Group5 thing going on a couple of years ago, but I thought they'd undone that. It looks like they have but they still have a weirdly written set of rules:


12.6 Open 2WD
12.6.1 Definition.
Any 2WD vehicle which meets the requirements of 12.1 to 12.4, and 12.6.2 to 12.6.6. This includes vehicles
of series or limited production, which are modified beyond what is permitted in Production 2WD. Innovation
and modifications within the rules are encouraged.
12.6.2 Engine and weight.
The engine is unrestricted, but must be derived from the product line offered by the vehicle manufacturer.

blahblahblah...stuff about weighing...blahblahblah

12.6.2.1 Engine Displacement and weight.
Vehicles must meet the following minimum weight, dependant on the engine displacement and use of
forced induction.
Naturally Aspirated Engines:
 Up to 4000cc: No Minimum Vehicle Weight
 Max engine displacement for Naturally Aspirated engines is 4000cc
Forced Induction Engines:
 Restricted Induction as per 12.6.3 Up to 2000cc: No Minimum Vehicle Weight
 Restricted Induction as per 12.6.3 2001cc to 2500cc: Vehicle Minimum Weight 1136 kg (2500 Forced induction on engines over 2500cc not permitted
 Un-Restricted Induction Up to 2500cc: Vehicle Minimum Weight 1318kg (2900lbs).
Rotary Engines:
 Restricted to twin rotors. Peripheral porting is not permitted –No Minimum Vehicle Weight


From that, it looks like they don't consider rotaries to be either naturally aspirated or have forced induction. I guess they figure the air is teleported in via a wormhole in the space-time continuum. Maybe the intent is there to not allow turboed rotaries, but that's not the way I read it.

At any rate, I wonder what happens if you show up with, say, an FC T2 like Cable used to run. I mean, that's a two-rotor motor, which is the only restriction I can see on rotaries. I mean, yeah, you'd have to run the 32mm restrictor, but...



Self-righteous douche canoe
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Vincent Gagnon
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 05, 2018 05:11PM
Quote
hoche
From that, it looks like they don't consider rotaries to be either naturally aspirated or have forced induction. I guess they figure the air is teleported in via a wormhole in the space-time continuum. Maybe the intent is there to not allow turboed rotaries, but that's not the way I read it.

HAHA!

Yeah, took a good look at it, seems you are right. I wonder where or why I was thinking that turbo rotary were not permitted in Canada.



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Philippe Bellefleur
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 05, 2018 05:33PM
Seems to have changed since last time I read it years ago. No p-port allowed but no mention of trochoid intrusion (j-port), I remember a phrase under the lines of no intake ports intruding in the rotor housing or something like that. I also remember something about displacement being limited to 3000cc, 5 cylinder max and no turbo beyond 2L.

Stuff changed from what I see.

Seems you can turbo the wankel in production 4wd and no mention of interdiction in open 2wd:


12.6.2.1 Engine Displacement and weight.

Rotary Engines:
 Restricted to twin rotors. Peripheral porting is not permitted –No Minimum Vehicle Weight


so we can turbo in grp.5

12.7.2.3 Engine Displacement.
Production 2WD:
 The maximum displacement limit is 2500cc.
 The maximum displacement limit for forced induction engines is 1600cc.
 Rotary engines are restricted to twin rotors. Additional porting and forced induction is not
permitted.

Production 4WD:
 The maximum displacement limit for both normally aspirated and forced induction engines
is 2500cc.
 Rotary engines are restricted to twin rotors. Additional porting is not permitted.


Soooo... you can boost a wankel to 300+hp but you can't do it N/A (p-port), go figure. In production you can't play with port timing but you can force as much air in as you want if 4wd (no 4wd rotaries in existence).

Vince, I think we did something like 1.3*1.8=2.34 so, superior to 2L ergo no turbo (old rules).
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Philippe Bellefleur
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 05, 2018 05:39PM
CARS 2013:

12.6.2.1 Engine Displacement.
 The maximum displacement limit for normally aspirated engines is 3000cc and is also limited to
a maximum of 5 cylinders.
 The maximum displacement limit for forced induction engines is 2000cc.
 Rotary engines are restricted to twin rotors. Peripheral porting is not permitted.

12.7.3 Adjusted Displacement.
Adjusted displacement must be no greater than 5100cc using the following multipliers:
 Rotary engines 1.8
 Turbo or supercharged engines 1.7
 Pushrod engines 0.8

(seems they got rid of adjusted displacement.)

1.3*1.8*1.7 =3.978, superior to 2L ergo no turbo allowed (back then)... does this make sense?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2018 05:45PM by Philippe Bellefleur.
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Mad Matt F
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 05, 2018 09:53PM
I like you two guys cause yer from here... but ya gotta read more, and say less (although you seem to be the sole instagrators here these days. winking smiley

No recollection of turbo rotories being an issue here... in fact they even have had no weight restriction in the past when just having 4 wheels driven has!

Rotary Engines:
 Restricted to twin rotors. Peripheral porting is not permitted
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Vincent Gagnon
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 12:29AM
Quote
Mad Matt F
but ya gotta read more, and say less

You have no idea how I agree with that.



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Alex Staidle
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 12:58AM
yea so. 1. The rx7 looks nice and since nice ones are drying as "tear this apart to turn it into a pos" race projects, i would just sell it off. Unless you KNOW rotaries or are some significant percentage puerto rican per a 23 and me report, you will not have a good time.

And that is separate to the whole short travel, no room for suspension even with towers in the rear, brakes too big for a damn wheel having chassis. FB is a good starting point and be literally free if you look hard. Add four link. Some other bits and your good.

Or get a volvo. Or something already that is a rally car and go rallying during THIS decade of your life.



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sudoprime
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 10:18AM
I'm keeping the FD for sure, I might even *GASP* put a V8 in it.

But for a rally car, a 240 does seem a little saner.
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Philippe Bellefleur
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 05:05PM
All you need is a better cooling system and a decently sized single turbo. Don't chase monster power, spend your time and money setting up suspension & brakes.
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sudoprime
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 05:42PM
For sure, I'm gonna start by making it a decent autocross car and then just see where it goes.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 07:11PM
Quote
sudoprime
For sure, I'm gonna start by making it a decent autocross car and then just see where it goes.

Are you independently wealthy? There's an old Japanese saying that says more or less "Do one thing well"
For most people that means one car...splitting money, energy and time btween a street car, an otter-cwosser and a rally car usually means all 3 are done poorly..

Think of this: a well set up RWD rally car can go slow and fast, turn left, turn right., get sideways on smooth surfaces and not so smooth surfaces, above all go quickly, and slow quickly.
Therefore a decently set up RWD rally car can easily be used on real stage rally, hillclimbs, tracking days, drag, otter-cross in parking lots, gwass o cwoss in a field, and drift--since ALL of that is found on EVERY stage---potentially.

But an optimised otter-cross car can do only that..

Same with an optimised FWD car...My own car is FWD and it goes in the woods quite well...limited far more by me than anything else..But it sucks on ass-fault, I wouldn't even dream of doing a track day (only does 105mph)(quickly thanks to a 5.43 final drive and close ratio box and 2020 lbs race ready weight), hillclimb meh..

Do one thing well...
Unless you're indepenently wealthy and you plan to farm out all the work.



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sudoprime
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 07:38PM
It will be me and my brother doing all the work. I'm not rich or anything, but I'm in my late 20's and I'm living comfortably, own a home, finally have a savings account and I don't mind dumping some money into racing.

I've been through 4 cars in 4 years, a Civic SI, BRZ, Cayman S, and then an STI. I didn't wanna beat on those cars too hard so I kept it to autocross and rallycross. Just sold the STI to get my wife a 1 series, so I'm basically budgeting my old car payments to throw at racing.

I'm at the point where I know that I love skids and prefer RWD. I've never done a drift event or track day, but I'm interested in both. I figure that the FD would make a good autoX car, drift car, track car, wheel to wheel race car, etc. I'm not gonna min/max everything to the autocross rules, just try and stay in a general class so I can compare times while I build the car.

My brother is graduating this year with an ME degree, figured I'd get a TIG welder and tear the car down to put in a roll cage. It's an auto so I'll probably toss a T56 in there and rebuild the rotary. Some KW-ish coilovers should be able to handle track and drift comfortably. This is gonna be a weekend project, so I figure that it will all take about a year.

Then I've got a toy that I can bring to just about any event I stumble across. I was hoping to have a second set of rally coilovers and some small wheels/brakes that I could just swap out for rally events, but I don't wanna murder the chassis, so idk.

I'm also planning on setting up a data acquisition system using arduinos and some sensors so that I can have some data points to help me improve as a driver.

That's the basic plan. I don't mind building a separate rally car, but it will take some time to build it. You could argue that I'm better off ditching the rx7 and buying a rally car now, but this is the plan!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2018 09:11PM by sudoprime.
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Vincent Gagnon
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 08:46PM
Can't wait to see anything related to rally (this is the subject of this forum after all) accomplished.
Good luck.



Ask for work.
If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2018 09:07PM by Vincent Gagnon.
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Alex Staidle
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 06, 2018 11:23PM
going to the T5 or T56 (which is more difficult) is not worth it. I know this because i've done it.



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sudoprime
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Re: Chassis jig necessary on a car with no accidents?
February 07, 2018 07:47AM
What makes you say that the T56 isn't worth it? Is it just expensive to do the swap? or is it a PITA to do? or does it just shift like a boat?

I figured that although overbuilt for the 13b, going with the T56 would "save" me money if I went LS power down the road, plus I could even build a sequential with straight cut gears if it came to that.

[edit] The gearing ratio is definitely not ideal for a car that revs though. It will probably be basically a 5 speed until an LS goes in it, then it would be pretty well geared.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2018 07:48AM by sudoprime.
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