Grandfathered Cages, questions

I bought that blue mk3 golf (has a logbook from 2000, last raced in 2006) and looked at the cage and have the following questions for a tech/scrutineer in aNY sanctioning body:

I have main hoop diagonals but they only go half way up the hoop, not all the way to the top near the bend. Do I cut them out and weld in a new diagonal?



Nasa Says this:

6 Grandfathering and Variances
Previously logbooked cars (including those with NASA, SCCA, and CARS logbooks) will be allowed to compete as is
for this year under the following conditions:
1. The cage must have at least 1 diagonal in the plane of the main hoop (or rear legs of lateral roll bars) and 1
diagonal in the plane of the rear backstays or comply with the diagonal requirements of Element 3 and Element 4.
2. The roof level connections of bolt-in cages are welded per NASA Rally Sport scrutineer guidance. These must be
inspected, accepted, and noted in the vehicle logbook at the next event.
3. All cars will be required to have Element 5 (Sill Bars) and Element 7 (Door Bars).
4. All cars without Element 2 (Roof Bars) must have at least one gusset per side at the intersection of the windshield
bar and the side half laterals per 4.2.The gusset may be in front of, or behind, the tube across the windshield.
Previously accepted roll cage tubing sizes accepted under SCCA rally rules will be accepted for cars with SCCA
logbooks issued prior to Jan 1 2005, for the foreseeable future.
For cars logbooked prior to 1-1-2009, Element 6 (A pillar reinforcements) is not required.
Variations on roll cage designs outside these rules may be accepted at the discretion of the Chief Scrutineer of an
event. However, acceptance by the Chief Scrutineer of a non-compliant roll cage at one event does not guarantee
continued acceptance at that or any other event, and not to be construed to allow a path for continued acceptance of
a non-compliant cage. It strongly recommended that any cage that is given discretionary acceptance for one event
be upgraded to be in compliance with these rules rather than have the owner/entrant continue to seek discretionary
acceptance at each event.

This isn't really the right place to ask that question. You'll have to ask a local scrutineer.

I presume your car has a V going from the region of the center hump to the main cage at about the height of the door strikers? That used to be an allowed configuration for SCCA and subsequently for RA cages. When NRS came out with their rulebook, they still allowed the configuration, but wanted the bars to end somewhat higher on the main hoop (at the 2/3 point or higher, if memory serves.) You can't build new cages that way, but a grandfathered cage should be OK.

I'd probably accept it if you had decent diagonals or V's in your rear stays. I wouldn't accept it if you had nothing but the rear stays themselves.

That being said, I don't know how grandfathered cages are being enforced in your area. There's at least one east-coast NRS scrutineer who's slightly off his rocker and was going to force updates on a well-established car that was acceptable everywhere else in the country. I don't know who's doing the R-A scrutineering any more, and don't think ARA has designated any local scrutineers yet, just their tech board.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Here are some photos if I can get them to load. I have one diagonal on the rear stays and an X in the lower half of the main hoop, with a horizontal above them. I also have gussets in the windshield area as is required (I think) by NASA rules for grandfathered cages.

Edited: I understand I need to ask a scrutineer, but it sounds like there are differing interpretations and I wanted to get a conservative opinion from people like you Hoche.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 05:36PM by Frank Gossett.

Oh. Huh. Never seen that done that way before.

Ok, so that's valid as a grandfathered cage under R-A despite the main hoop wackiness because the diagonal in the rear stays used to be an acceptable alternative to a diagonal in the main hoop. The mini-X and harness bar in the main hoop would just be considered to be extra bars. That also applies for ARA events because they use the R-A grandfathering rules.

If you're running an NRS event, you're OK if it's got an R-A logbook because of the clause that says that those cars get teched to the R-A grandfathering rules. However, if it's got an SCCA logbook you may not be allowed to run because of the requirement that grandfathered cages have a diagonal in both the main hoop and the rear stays. It'd be up to the scrutineer at the event.

What I would do is get in touch with a fairly high-ranking east coast NRS scrutineer and send him those pictures and ask. If he OK's it you can tell other scrutineers at NRS events that so-and-so OKed it and probably be ok. I recommend either Marcel Ciascai in VA or Andrew Smith in PA.

Don't be surprised if they tell you to cut it out. In fact, you might want to consider doing that anyway just to save yourself future headaches.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Oh yeah. You probably want to put in A-pillar reinforcements. They're not technically necessary for a grandfathered cage but they're still wise. For a variety of reasons hitting things with the top corner of the windshield is a really popular activity with rally drivers.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

I apologize, this car has a CARS logbook. I think the main hoop diagonal needs to be one piece? I could cut out the X and keep the horizontal, then put two pieces in to make the diagonal if it can be a two piece bar.

Doug Nagy sold me the car and I have his messages saying the cage is legal but I understand others may have an alternate opinion.

Quote
hoche
Oh. Huh. Never seen that done that way before.

Ok, so that's valid as a grandfathered cage under R-A despite the main hoop wackiness because the diagonal in the rear stays used to be an acceptable alternative to a diagonal in the main hoop. The mini-X and harness bar in the main hoop would just be considered to be extra bars. That also applies for ARA events because they use the R-A grandfathering rules.

If you're running an NRS event, you're OK if it's got an R-A logbook because of the clause that says that those cars get teched to the R-A grandfathering rules. However, if it's got an SCCA logbook you may not be allowed to run because of the requirement that grandfathered cages have a diagonal in both the main hoop and the rear stays. It'd be up to the scrutineer at the event.

What I would do is get in touch with a fairly high-ranking east coast NRS scrutineer and send him those pictures and ask. If he OK's it you can tell other scrutineers at NRS events that so-and-so OKed it and probably be ok. I recommend either Marcel Ciascai in VA or Andrew Smith in PA.

Don't be surprised if they tell you to cut it out. In fact, you might want to consider doing that anyway just to save yourself future headaches.

Oh, I didn't realize that was the car Doug had. He and I are both west coast scrutineers and mostly stay in sync on what we'll accept, and we'd both be fine with it.

Since it has a CARS logbook, it falls under the NRS grandfathering rules, and the problem is that it doesn't meet the letter of those rules so you're up to the mercy of the local event tech inspector. If you can get an OK from one of the main NRS East scrutineers, it'll go a long way towards making your case if things come to a head at an actual event.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
Since it has a CARS logbook, it falls under the NRS grandfathering rules, and the problem is that it doesn't meet the letter of those rules .

Understood, it won't be hard for me to cut that section out and weld in an X in the main hoop. I'll use sections that I cut out for gussets elsewhere.

Speaking of Gussets, I pulled the following from the RA rulebook

k. Front Gussets: Shall join the Front Hoop and Roof Bars (or Side Hoops
and Windshield Bar, or Halo Hoop and Windshield Legs) on at least one
side of the union. These gussets may be made from:
1. Flat sheet of the same material and thickness as the Front Hoop may
be rolled to semi-circular wrap type gusset. (Taco??)
2. Tubing at least three quarters inch in diameter and sixty thousandths
inch thick (0.750"x0.060”).
3. Flat sheet or “Plate” type gussets of the same material and thickness
as the Main Hoop are allowed. Regardless of which type gusset is
used, it must extend on to each joined tube at least 2", but not more
than 3", and be fully welded all around.

Question is, I want to do a taco gusset in the main hoop diagonals, it has to be same thickness as diagonals, and not be longer than 3" but longer than 2" ??

NASA has this to say though:
1. U-shaped sheet metal (taco shell). Refer to figure 253-
34 below. Minimum thickness is .040” (1 mm). Minimum
length along the unwelded side of the gusset is 3 times
the tubing diameter.
2. Round tubing. Minimum length of the longest
dimensions is 3 times the tubing diameter. Minimum
tubing diameter is 1” with minimum wall thickness of .
083”. Maximum diameter and wall thickness is per the
materials in table of section 6.6.
3. One or 2 triangular plate steel gussets with combined
thickness equal to the tubing which is being gusseted.
Minimum length along the unwelded side of the
triangular gusset is 3 times the tubing diameter.
Any plate or u-shaped gusset that is welded into a joint
location where it can block the view of the welds between
the tubes being reinforced must have the corner cut back to
enable visual inspection of the tube joint. This is illustrated
in figure 253-34 and typically looks like a bite out of the
corner of the gusset.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 12:31PM by Frank Gossett.

Keep in mind that the ARA rules update for next year requires all cars to conform to 2006 Rally America cage rules with the addition of:

Quote

Effective 1/1/20, existing log booked rally vehicles with non-homologated roll cages built
to the 2006 Rally America rules are subject to the following additional requirements:
1. A sill bar + at least one more door bar is required on each side.
2. Diagonals to each corner of the top of the main hoop, whether in the plane of the
main hoop or the rear stays are required.
3. A Windscreen support from front cage foot (within 4”) to within 6” of the transverse
windshield bar is required on each side.
4. Minimum size for these added elements is 1.5” x .095".
Rationale. Ensure older vehicles meet current safety standards.

At least they're giving everyone more than a year to get their cars updated.

Source: ARA Bulliten 2018-8



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2018 12:07PM by dunhamr1.

Get rid of notes and go back to aluminum cages!!! Or at least something understandable (if not perfect...I don't like their gusset suggestions, but they're better than most) like Lemons rules.

https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/How-To-Not-Fail-Lemons-Tech_v3_051817.pdf

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
fiasco
Get rid of notes and go back to aluminum cages!!! Or at least something understandable (if not perfect...I don't like their gusset suggestions, but they're better than most) like Lemons rules.

I'm just going to assume you're joking and move along.

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Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 03:15PM by hoche.

Quote
dunhamr1
Keep in mind that the ARA rules update for next year requires all cars to conform to 2006 Rally America cage rules with the addition of:

Quote

Effective 1/1/20, existing log booked rally vehicles with non-homologated roll cages built
to the 2006 Rally America rules are subject to the following additional requirements:
1. A sill bar + at least one more door bar is required on each side.
2. Diagonals to each corner of the top of the main hoop, whether in the plane of the
main hoop or the rear stays are required.
3. A Windscreen support from front cage foot (within 4”) to within 6” of the transverse
windshield bar is required on each side.
4. Minimum size for these added elements is 1.5” x .095".
Rationale. Ensure older vehicles meet current safety standards.

At least they're giving everyone more than a year to get their cars updated.

Source: ARA Bulliten 2018-8

Naturally that came out right after elsewhere I said that ARA didn't require sill bars. *sigh*

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Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2018 06:01PM by hoche.

Quote
hoche

Quote
fiasco
Get rid of notes and go back to aluminum cages!!! Or at least something understandable (if not perfect...I don't like their gusset suggestions, but they're better than most) like Lemons rules.

I'm just going to assume you're joking and move along.

I am joking about the aluminum, not joking about blind rallies and having rules that non-lawyers can understand. Lemons has a PDF to download called "how not to fail Lemons tech" and I think it's a very good guideline for THEIR ruleset.

Use this material, make it look like this or this or this (with photos or illustrations for examples). Attach cage to places like here and here with plates like this or this. If you want to deviate from these plans, bring your PE stamp and we still may tell you pound sand.

Clear examples, not wall of text.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
fiasco
Get rid of notes and go back to aluminum cages!!! Or at least something understandable (if not perfect...I don't like their gusset suggestions, but they're better than most) like Lemons rules.

https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/How-To-Not-Fail-Lemons-Tech_v3_051817.pdf

Quite good.
And quite sad that none of the numerous iterations of rally sanctioning bodies could do something that simple.
Ever

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
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