Using the block as a stressed member

I know it is common practice to feed chassis loads into the engine blocks of formula cars. I am even aware of one of the first( if not the very first) GT-1/Trans Am chassis that used this practice. Has this ever been attempted in a rally car that anyone is aware of? I could see Grp B maybe doing this, but not knowing the tech specs for this class, I wouldn't even guess. Just from a laymans view, the engine bay in a 240 and xratty seem to have an awful lot of room for just such a thing. Would it be worth it? I know there are issues with block twisting. And yes, I am looking to reinvent the wheel.

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Perhaps the Flying Baldini brothers will chime in. They made aluminum mounts for their GTX. I'm sorta wondering how that's working for 'em myself!

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

You are correct, that was rather common practice during Group B days.
From the top of my head the ones I remember are Lancia 037, Delta S4 and Metro 6R4. I still have a burn mark on my wrist from the 6R4. It may have been worth it for the GrB because of the enormous Hp they were producing.

There is nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel, R&D is usually painted with cubic Dollars.

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Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

Look to how Kevin Hawkinson has mounted the engine in his Volvo 240 for what looks like an interesting way of doing it.

In my Volvo I am using a pair of shortened rear suspension arms that get ahold of each valve cover for additional engine mounting. This was the end of having engine mounts fail with every event.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

JohnLane Wrote:

> In my Volvo I am using a pair of shortened rear
> suspension arms that get ahold of each valve cover
> for additional engine mounting.>


WEIRD! I look at my little top 4 links and thought about doing that same thing.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look to how Kevin Hawkinson has mounted the engine
> in his Volvo 240 for what looks like an
> interesting way of doing it.
>
> In my Volvo I am using a pair of shortened rear
> suspension arms that get ahold of each valve cover
> for additional engine mounting. This was the end
> of having engine mounts fail with every event.
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun


Got pics you can post, or a link to some. Oh, also Kevin's car, that is the red 242 correct?

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Yup, Kevin's car is the red one. I recall seeing a pic with a really rusty block hanging from a pair of mounts.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

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Monika Hawkinson
Seattle, WA

Sofa King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Kevin Hawkinson
> Seattle, WA
> 83 Volvo 240 Gp5 (in progress)
> 34-ish

This is nicer:





But this is the best:

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So in a rally car, what is the point of this? Wouldnt the strut bar and crossmember brace the strut towers enough? Especially if you run your cage to it... I dont see why you'd want to use the block to strengthen.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
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> So in a rally car, what is the point of this?
> Wouldnt the strut bar and crossmember brace the
> strut towers enough? Especially if you run your
> cage to it... I dont see why you'd want to use the
> block to strengthen.
>
> Feisty Peacock?

The major point is this is so much stronger AND you can service crossmember and steering or DROP THE WHOLE CROSSMEMBER without screwing around supporting the engine because your motor is mounted ON the crossmember.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

oh, ok, I remember you telling me about the drop the crossmember/front everything without the motor going "ker plunk"

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

>
> The major point is this is so much stronger AND
> you can service crossmember and steering or DROP
> THE WHOLE CROSSMEMBER without screwing around
> supporting the engine because your motor is
> mounted ON the crossmember.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


I knew there was a secondary consideration to this. So essentially what Kevin has done is what I am trying to accomplish. Ok, what so the engine transmission is connected at three points. Either side of the engine and then at the tail end of the transmission?

Also, do you still want to run a top mount strut brace?

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Vorpal_Rally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The major point is this is so much stronger
> AND
> > you can service crossmember and steering or
> DROP
> > THE WHOLE CROSSMEMBER without screwing
> around
> > supporting the engine because your motor is
> > mounted ON the crossmember.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
> >
> > Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
> >
> > www.jvab.f4.ca
>
>
> I knew there was a secondary consideration to
> this.

There's usually several things going on at once



So essentially what Kevin has done is what
> I am trying to accomplish.

Oh? To be honest I had no idea what you meant or what you were thinking.
I know I've seen water-bug Formula cars using block and gearboxes with suspension pickup points or mounts, and considered that to be what you'se wuz alluding to.
And what Kevin has done is to look at what FORD did, and what I've done on several of the Xratties now in Limbo, with one friends old 510 and what we see that Toyota did as well on their GpB Celicas.
See somewhere here "Ford Motorsport Manual Scans" where our Canajian friend Paddy slaved over a hot scanner working his fingers to the bone (and this! is thanks he gets!?? OI!!!) for hours in the snow scanning in those manuals.
Dpwnload them. PRINT THEM OUT, look thru them and get familiar with them.
Few things can't be answered or have good ideas of solutions suggested in those manuals.


Ok, what so the engine
> transmission is connected at three points. Either
> side of the engine and then at the tail end of the
> transmission?

Well on the tailshaft and it turned out a nifty JVAB "606" copy of a Ford "909" part worked perfectly as a trans crossmember once it was shortened about 1/16 per side. And we made a version of the mount tilted for the Camaro trans.
The whole set-up, motor mounts and trans mounts is solid but retains enough rubber or poly to be pretty damn smooth

AND NOT LET THE MOTOR JUMP ALL AROUND and rip shit up, and stress the U-joints in the propshaft.

>
> Also, do you still want to run a top mount strut
> brace?

Probably but you want something that really works, not something cheesy which is just gets in the way.
>
!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So I guess reading this brings up a question for me:

Is it better to hang the engine from the frame or leave it on the crossmembers.

I don't like thinking about all the stress being sent from the crossmember into the engine when I run into large immovable objects. And it would allow me to swap a crossmember if needed without worrying about supporting the engine......

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-Jason