No Need for quick steering

I gotta say I keep hearing "real heroes don't really steer with the wheel...they drive with their feet" stuff so I see this and can't help wonder "Was Colin incompetent, cua it sure looks like he's steering the steering wheel a lot?"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

He also seems to spend alot of time with the front of his car looking into the woods.

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

mothra Wrote:
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> He also seems to spend alot of time with the front
> of his car looking into the woods.

Yep so obviously he doesn't know what he's doing, right.
>
> Matt Smith
>
> Racing in glorious black and red
>
> My daily life is a Saab story

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

i don't understand either, he keeps turning the steering wheel before the turn....then when he's in the turn, he turns it the wrong direction! s'up with that?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> i don't understand either, he keeps turning the
> steering wheel before the turn....then when he's
> in the turn, he turns it the wrong direction!
> s'up with that?

Don't know if you're continuing my sarcastic, "what's he doing?" or not Jon.
You joking or serious?
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> RallyX Team Up TwoMountains
> Team Blog:
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > i don't understand either, he keeps turning
> the
> > steering wheel before the turn....then when
> he's
> > in the turn, he turns it the wrong direction!
>
> > s'up with that?
>
> Don't know if you're continuing my sarcastic,
> "what's he doing?" or not Jon.
> You joking or serious?
> >
> > Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> > RallyX Team Up TwoMountains
> > Team Blog:
> >


LOL.....joking, of course.


>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:

>
> > >
>
>
> LOL.....joking, of course.
>
Oh, Ok.
Ya know that early turn in thing at speed is one of those things I say can only be learned at speed ya know, dotcha.
I know when I was teaching Dave Clark that early turn in ---or as we call in in moto-cross "squaring the turn"--- he was like seriously shook up and saying "It doesn't seem right--it's wierd--- but I just went thru that corner as gear higher and on the gas full!! What da fawk! Yeeeeeeeee Haaaaaw!!"
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
>
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > LOL.....joking, of course.
> >
> Oh, Ok.
> Ya know that early turn in thing at speed is one
> of those things I say can only be learned at speed
> ya know, dotcha.
> I know when I was teaching Dave Clark that early
> turn in ---or as we call in in moto-cross
> "squaring the turn"--- he was like seriously shook
> up and saying "It doesn't seem right--it's
> wierd--- but I just went thru that corner as gear
> higher and on the gas full!! What da fawk!
> Yeeeeeeeee Haaaaaw!!"
> >
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Well, I agree and disagree....it took a while for me to get the concept of turning in before the turn, going in sideways, and then getting on the throttle hard mid turn. Learning how to 'Scandinavian flick' properly was a big 'light bulb moment' for me. But I DID learn 'the concept' at slow 1st and 2nd gear speeds.

and yes, now I just need to practice the mechanics of that 'at speed'. Doing that rallysprint earlier this year in a fwd srt-4 (with a messed up ECU, so no power) was really fun; staying on the gas the entire turn, flicking it at the last possible second.....good times.

but now you see why I push the rallyX stuff to learn the basics.....at that rally sprint, I didn't have to worry about the 'how' or 'why', just had to practice my timing, but at no point was a fumbling or wondering 'what do I do next', it was all 2nd nature at that point.


the CRS Rally School and Paul Eklund's rally school are both big on the left foot brake concept, but don't really get into scandinavian flicks, throwing the car sideways into a turn, etc. I guess one of the instructors at PE's school actually said 'sideways is slow', and I'm just like....'huh? what?'

so I guess this is 'slow'





John, you'll enjoy this thread....I get a little aggro on a guy regarding this topic:
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4818

starts getting interesting on page 2. (oh, and my username over there is up2mtns)

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2008 12:29AM by Jon Burke.

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> the CRS Rally School and Paul Eklund's rally
> school are both big on the left foot brake
> concept, but don't really get into scandinavian
> flicks, throwing the car sideways into a turn,
> etc. I guess one of the instructors at PE's
> school actually said 'sideways is slow', and I'm
> just like....'huh? what?'
>


Sideways isn't slow....TOO sideways is slow, its all about getting it just right and loosing as little momentum as possible without ruining your throttle on exit. They should start at a karting track and get people to feel how cornering works on a powerless car, then FEEL the same thing on dirt at the school. having confidence to do this stuff at low speed is completely different than having the confidence to do it at high speed

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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You guys should note that a few years ago when Pat Richard was doing his best to dominate here in North America, and doing a fair good job of it when he went to try out the whole "P"WRC that several experienced furriner observers in widely separated places said "his problem is he goes too sideways".
Now what some local instructors who maybe kindly aren't particularly fast say is one thing, but I wrote a couple of them furriners who said more or less "Oh he's way more fun to watch, but in (contrast to NA fields) a highly competitive RESTRICTED GpN class, one cannot get sideways--even on gravel-- without it costing you too much time compared to somebody who can adopt a "Loeb"esque (or earlier Auriol ---allez Didier!) clean precision type line, and it is clear he doesn't understand this).

Tom hit it square (which ain't surprising since he's driving the most aggressive of anybody here---and faster than any instructors you boys may have been "taught" by), the real question is getting it "just enough".

I used to say when I drove my old Saab, "sideways, but not crazy counter-steering sideways.

Like everything else, it should be done --for a reason--.
Not a dogma.

Remember my favorite bumpersticker:
"I think my Karma just ran over your dogma"

It's perfect for this discussion.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

In my opinion, and its just that, im really not looking for a full novelesque response to it explaining how im only 19 and never driven a rally and this and that, you should be AS CLOSE to the "grip" line as possible, and slide only when you need to, should you want to go fast. With the proper lines, and then sliding out the rear when you need to, you should be faster then someone who slides everything from a 1 to a 6+.

Im basing this off watching the WRC cars fly around corners and either slightly sliding, or not really sliding at all, AND the video on WRC.com about handbrakes and the picture in picture (well, picture by picture) of Leob and Gronholm tackling a hairpin. Without the handbrake, Gronholm comes in with a "grip" style line and gets to the turn quicker, but his exit speed (the important part) isnt as high as Leob. Loebe comes in and while he is trail braking, he hits the handbrake for a second and rotates right around to being able to power out sooner. He's exit speed was a lot faster then Gronholm.

So my thought is that if its a tight corner, like a 1 or 2, MAKE it slide, and anything else if it happens to oversteer just by hauling ass around the bend, let it slide but keep it inline, but dont try to "hang it out" purposfully.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I gotta say I keep hearing "real heroes don't
> really steer with the wheel...they drive with
> their feet" stuff so I see this and can't help
> wonder "Was Colin incompetent, cua it sure looks
> like he's steering the steering wheel a lot?"
>
I would LIKE to say stuff like that; how this? "REAL rally drivers learn to subconciously count the number of steering wheel turns off-center they they are...."

I am sure the best use all sorts of things like quickeners. I would make the point that if you are building or buying a SIMPLE rally car to get in the game and just get started, steering quickeners are waaaay down on the list of priorites. Even if they make a driver faster by 1 sec per mile, for example, you are not really worrying about that when you get started, especialy if you have not driven competitively before.

Don't get de-focused from a simple car build/buy by thinking you HAVE to have stuff like this; you don't. We need to get more folks out on stage in simple rally cars, and having fun.

Regards,
Mark B.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I used to say when I drove my old Saab, "sideways,
> but not crazy counter-steering sideways.
>

Whats wrong with a little counter steering



> Like everything else, it should be done --for a
> reason--.
> Not a dogma.

Actually in the pic I posted above that was done for a reason. After that left hander I'm in is a hairpin right, which the car swung into nicely and I popped it down into 2nd which was the perfect gear to pull out of the corner with my 4.46 r&p

Heres a vid I feel is about the right amount of sideways, though I could have used a bit more speed. No handbrakes or flicks or trickery needed, just a little weight transfer at the appropriate time.
http://www.realautosport.com/SStar07/11Seidel.MOV
The in car video of that corner looks totally lame and slow, too.
If you go up a directory at the video link above and scroll down you can see videos of everyone hitting that corner. Judge for yourself who hits it fast and who doesnt.

I just drive each corner however I happen to when I get there. I've never had any real "instruction" on how to drive. I never have a plan on how I'm going to hit the corner, I just go on instinct on what I feel I need to do in order to get the car through the turn the fastest way I can.

I dont know if I was tring to make a point with this post or just post up some self indulging multimedia. But in either case, mission acomplished.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Whats wrong with a little counter steering

Nuthing really, better that than farting elephants plowing wide and revving to 2000 before slammin a 3 second gearchange!
>
>
>
> > Like everything else, it should be done --for
> a
> > reason--.
> > Not a dogma.
>
> I dont know if I was tring to make a point with
> this post or just post up some self indulging
> multimedia. But in either case, mission
> acomplished.

Who cares, GREAT PICCIE!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I gotta say I keep hearing "real heroes don't
> really steer with the wheel...they drive with
> their feet" stuff so I see this and can't help
> wonder "Was Colin incompetent, cua it sure looks
> like he's steering the steering wheel a lot?"
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Great video.. But who can tell how Colin's really driving ..You would have to see his feet to know ..And this video is 2001..At the height of all the hi end tec in WRC..Apples to oranges..World AWD cars are are not club cars..Its all about style..And you have know clue what your style is until you get on stage and see..My style seams to not need a quickner or e-brake.. Now I'm in a RWD cars...In AWD or FWD I may want one in a race..And the AWD and FWD I've played with I still "feel" no need for one ..For "me" quickners in RWD just make them to tail happy..

Not against quick steering at all..

But for a guy whos never raced a race he "thinks" its a must.. Drive the car first...JV at times I think you really have no clue about Americans..Your European and think like a European.. Haven't you Know-est that Americans will not drive or race a toy unless it perfect.. If they can't have a AWD EVO or Subi they will not race at all..They will not get the main things done and go at it..It has to have all the trick shit fancy paint and all ..Or it sites..Or they take up golf.. They also think this trick peace or that trick peace will get them to win over all in there first race..

And the way the money is these days and rally taking a noise dive..Why not do the less is more thing..You John have really helped American rally ..But at times less would be better..
Lots of time for quickners and trick e-brakes..I'm with Mark lets get more cars on stage ..

David

Hazardous Toys inc