Steel Coilover Sleeve : Where to buy ?

I'm not going to spend upwards of 2K dollars at this point.

My car doens't have a cage yet...Whats the point?

I can't really rally anyway. I can do SCCA and trackday stuff at infenion and thunderhill. AutoX all season here in Somoa, Hoopa Hill climb and whatever else.

When I get a cage I'll get a gravel suspension. Until then this is going to be waay better than what I have in there now. And I'm only about $300-$400 bucks away from being there. $55 x 4 for springs, steel sleeves, adjusters, spring tops. That's it.

And I can always keep that as my road going suspension.

I can probably get decent money for the rare Eibach lowering springs that are in the car now (they never sold in the U.S.) and make up a good part of the cost.

If I go the other way and sell my bilstiens and GAB housings I'll prolly only get $600 and I'll have to come up with another $1400 bucks to do it right like you did Tim.

---

Michael LeCompte

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah the math came from some book online about
> setting up suspension for race cars, you're right
> the bump stroke stuff probably doesn't apply. But
> the rest does.
>
> This is what I have to work with. If I end up on
> the bump stops I'll get stiffer springs. If I run
> 12 inch springs all the way around then I'll have
> a range of springs to choose from. If I end up
> closer to a tarmac setup then that's what I'll end
> up with. You can find 12" 2.5" coilover springs
> for so cheap it's not funny. I've seen them as
> cheap as $25 each up to about $100 each for what
> I'd really want. Realistically I'll end up with
> something in the middle like Hyperco.
>
> I'm not going to spend upwards of 2K dollars at
> this point. My car doens't have a cage yet...Whats
> the point? I can't really rally anyway. I can do
> SCCA and trackday stuff at infenion and
> thunderhill. AutoX all season here in Somoa, Hoopa
> Hill climb and whatever else.
>
> I'll learn a lot more by doing this than buying
> them already done too.
>
> Michael LeCompte
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 4, 2008 by
> pikespeakgtx.

Got ya Michael. I am all for not spending $2k at this point; makes no sense to me either. I like the overall path you are on. And the learning thing is good too; one may not do it perfectly but one sure learns a ton; it's like an investment in your knowledge future for rally/race. I sure have done a lot of goofy things to get by, $$-wise.

But I still want to try to nudge you towards thinking some more about selling the present inserts and getting something with a decent stroke (and presumably longer overall extend length). I think you are probably in for a lot of dissappointment, and probably a serious low-rider. With short stroke, you will need short stiff springs, and you may then you have to look at the possible situation of the struts extending beyond the free length of the springs, and thus the springs will drop off the perches. Probably not a disaster for the springs or struts, but another handling issue. Do you know the overall length of the strut inserts you have there, versus a stock unit?

Let me ask this: when you lop off the stock perches, and weld on the collars, do you think you can work it to put in longer struts later? It will probably take some threaded collars that are longish to allow for this. (I have not looked at what you have been investigating). Think about it.

BTW, just curious for my own thought processes here: How do you plan to retain the struts in the body? Is there an internal thread in the top of the body with a retaining ring? If so, and the tops of the collars extend above the top of the body to get a decent ride height with short, stiff springs, do you have a way to tighten any such collar? (Since it will be down inside the collar, and you can grab it with a normal wrench......) If not, you have to put the collar below the top of the body, and this will force you to use longer springs, or ride REALLY low.....Just trying to think the geometries of this through.


Regards,
Mark B.

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok good to know. What rates are you running in
> your VW carl?
>
> Michael LeCompte


I wish I knew
Which vw bilstein insterts are you using? Part number on them?

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pikespeakgtx Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah the math came from some book online
> about
> > setting up suspension for race cars, you're
> right
> > the bump stroke stuff probably doesn't apply.
> But
> > the rest does.
> >
> > This is what I have to work with. If I end up
> on
> > the bump stops I'll get stiffer springs. If I
> run
> > 12 inch springs all the way around then I'll
> have
> > a range of springs to choose from. If I end
> up
> > closer to a tarmac setup then that's what
> I'll end
> > up with. You can find 12" 2.5" coilover
> springs
> > for so cheap it's not funny. I've seen them
> as
> > cheap as $25 each up to about $100 each for
> what
> > I'd really want. Realistically I'll end up
> with
> > something in the middle like Hyperco.
> >
> > I'm not going to spend upwards of 2K dollars
> at
> > this point. My car doens't have a cage
> yet...Whats
> > the point? I can't really rally anyway. I can
> do
> > SCCA and trackday stuff at infenion and
> > thunderhill. AutoX all season here in Somoa,
> Hoopa
> > Hill climb and whatever else.
> >
> > I'll learn a lot more by doing this than
> buying
> > them already done too.
> >
> > Michael LeCompte
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 4, 2008 by
> > pikespeakgtx.
>
> Got ya Michael. I am all for not spending $2k at
> this point; makes no sense to me either. I like
> the overall path you are on. And the learning
> thing is good too; one may not do it perfectly but
> one sure learns a ton; it's like an investment in
> your knowledge future for rally/race. I sure have
> done a lot of goofy things to get by, $$-wise.
>
> But I still want to try to nudge you towards
> thinking some more about selling the present
> inserts and getting something with a decent stroke
> (and presumably longer overall extend length). I
> think you are probably in for a lot of
> dissappointment, and probably a serious low-rider.
> With short stroke, you will need short stiff
> springs, and you may then you have to look at the
> possible situation of the struts extending beyond
> the free length of the springs, and thus the
> springs will drop off the perches. Probably not a
> disaster for the springs or struts, but another
> handling issue. Do you know the overall length of
> the strut inserts you have there, versus a stock
> unit?
>
> Let me ask this: when you lop off the stock
> perches, and weld on the collars, do you think you
> can work it to put in longer struts later? It will
> probably take some threaded collars that are
> longish to allow for this. (I have not looked at
> what you have been investigating). Think about
> it.
>
> BTW, just curious for my own thought processes
> here: How do you plan to retain the struts in the
> body? Is there an internal thread in the top of
> the body with a retaining ring? If so, and the
> tops of the collars extend above the top of the
> body to get a decent ride height with short, stiff
> springs, do you have a way to tighten any such
> collar? (Since it will be down inside the collar,
> and you can grab it with a normal wrench......) If
> not, you have to put the collar below the top of
> the body, and this will force you to use longer
> springs, or ride REALLY low.....Just trying to
> think the geometries of this through.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.
>

Thanks for the support Mark. And thanks for posing some interesting questions here ! I have a few ideas..I want to make sure I answer all of the questions you're asking so we can both be on the same page.

I took a few pictures to help.

I have the GAB extention tubes or housings up front and Tokiko Dirtas in the rear. Without wheel spacers the tire hits the spring perch. so that's what's got me thinking. I'd like to remove that and I'd like to get the car back up a couple inches in ride height.

These part number Bilstien inserts have been used by budget GTX rallists for a long time. They're in the database and go way back because they'll fit inside those GAB or Tokiko housings without fuss. They're 34mm it just sucks about the stroke. You can see the plastic rings that keep the insert from wiggleing around inside the housing and the Gland nuts I have will secure the inserts into the housings. The yellow rip ties are the stroke and the tiles on the floor are 8".

I see what you're saying about neededing extra thread length above the extension tube or housing if I'm to run short springs, but why not just use longer springs?

I was thinking of a long threaded sleeve with an extention tube spacer build into it.( if you will.) Made of steel That would thread onto the extention tube or housing with the male thread of a gland nut, extend ~2 inches upward and on the inside of the top have the female gland nut threads inside it that the insert could screw into. That way my strut is higher up and the right height for the static spring height with all the weight on the car...

I could make them on the lathe at the shop and we have TONS of extra steel material laying around ready to use. Might be a lot of work but my time is cheap.

You Said:
If so, and the
> tops of the collars extend above the top of the
> body to get a decent ride height with short, stiff
> springs, do you have a way to tighten any such
> collar? (Since it will be down inside the collar,
> and you can grab it with a normal wrench......) If
> not, you have to put the collar below the top of
> the body, and this will force you to use longer
> springs, or ride REALLY low.....Just trying to
> think the geometries of this through.

My answer to that question is...

What's wrong with using longer springs?

You also asked:
Do you know the overall length of
> the strut inserts you have there, versus a stock
> unit?

I don't know the overall length of the stockers...
These bilstiens are 21.5" and 24" rear
They're spec-ed out to fit the housings perfect, just a bummer that they don't have a long stroke.

---

Michael LeCompte

VW rabbit mk2 I think.
Front: P30-0032

and

Rear: P30-3005

We can also use a P30-0137 for the rear.

---

Michael LeCompte



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 04:59PM by pikespeakgtx.

Here are the drawings from bilstien

---

Michael LeCompte

Here's the rear

---

Michael LeCompte

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VW rabbit mk2 I think.


> Front: P30-0032

Thats a front Bilstein Sport insert for a rabbit and mk1 & 2 scirocco, as seen here: http://www.rapidparts.com/prod/P300032-Bilstein-Front-Sport-Insert-A1-VW/2032/

The sports are said to have 1" less travel than the bilstein HD's. So it may be worth it to get summa dem HD's. The part number for that would be P30-1037, as seen here: http://www.rapidparts.com/prod/P300137-Bilstein-Front-Heavy-Duty-Insert-A1-VW-F4-P30-0137-H1/2034


> and
>
> Rear: P30-3005

Thats a Bilstein HD for a 84-87 Audi Quattro. I dont know if there are any options for longer ones of those.

>
> We can also use a P30-0137 for the rear.

I think you mean front, since its another option for the front of a rabbit, or any A1 chassis vw.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 05:39PM by Carl S.

Wow Carl! Thanks.

You said: I think you mean front, since its another option for the front of a rabbit, or any A1 chassis vw.

Correct! The database must be wrong!!!

The F4-P30-0137-H1 is the HD shock insert used in the front of GTX
Found here...
http://www.rapidparts.com/prod/P300137-Bilstein-Front-Heavy-Duty-Insert-A1-VW-F4-P30-0137-H1/2034
and P30-3005 is the HD shock used in the rear of GTX.
Found here...
http://www.rapidparts.com/prod/P303005-Bilstein-Front-Heavy-Duty-Insert-VW-Fox-87-93/2035/

I ended up with the sports line shocks in front and they're for a reduced ride height spring. Because the database is wrong.

What I need are those 0137's. I could get an inch or so much travel out of it. Unfortunately, I'm not out of the woods yet, because it's still isn't really enough stroke AND the two shocks need to be revalved at 75 bucks each. So that's another $300.




I've requested a drawing of the of the 0137's from my friend at Bilstien, we'll see if he slow enough to actually send it.

---

Michael LeCompte



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 06:50PM by pikespeakgtx.

With a 10mm wheel spacer on the rear the tires will clear the struts spring perch just fine.

I'm going to roll the fenders with an eastwood fender roller. You can rent them for a week for $40. The brake kit I'm building spaces the wheels in the front a good bit, so it's got to happen. There's a pretty good article in some import mag where they roll the fenders on an S2000 to fit wider and taller fat R compound races tires under the fenders.

The trick will be getting the ride height close using off the shelf 5" conventional springs. And adjust it using machined spring shims. This is the cheap way out!

The conventional 5 inch springs will work with the spring perches I already have.

I could use a 15" and a 13" for front/back respectively.

Swifts got 15"ers from 300-150 in 25lb increments for $90
13"ers from 300-123 in 25lb inc. for $90 also.

So for $400 and in real good shape.

Hyperco 15" 250-125 in 25lb inc. Only $50
13" 375-100 (nice range) Only $50

Or $200 and go with maybe too soft of springs. Unless I could live with 250#. Or 13" springs with shims if needed.

Make shims from Steel on the lathe at the shop. Free.

Have to be real sure of the measurements of where I am now with spring length and compressed spring length and where I want to be with them.
I'll have to measure and do the math.

After mork quick math, I still haven't measured the dampers in the car, just going from stock springs lengths and rates, 5" x 13" 300lb springs in front with machined steel spring spacer of about an inch in height and 5" x 11" 200lb springs in the rear.

hmm...

the sleeves, adjusters, and spring tops add up in price when you multiply x4. Plus my struts are BS being short stroke. So might as well invest as little money as possible and get achieve the result I'm looking for of a higher ride height.

All the work of doing the sleeves and stuff isn't worth it on something like this thats temporary anyway.

---

Michael LeCompte



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2008 12:46PM by pikespeakgtx.

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I'm not going to spend upwards of 2K dollars
> at
> > this point. My car doens't have a cage
> yet...Whats
> > the point? I can't really rally anyway. I can
> do
> > SCCA and trackday stuff at infenion and
> > thunderhill. AutoX all season here in Somoa,
> Hoopa
> > Hill climb and whatever else.
> >
> > I'll learn a lot more by doing this than
> buying
> > them already done too.

The thing you OUGHT to be able to learn in advance of wasting a lot of dough is this:
IF the damper settings are XXX/zzz THEN the spring rate better be within a range of RRR lb/in.
Or your new shit will be over or underdamped.

If you must try and compensate for short travel with stiff springs, then the dampers will be underdamped.

WHY willingly set off on a road with known problems that there aren't easy solutions for?

IF the shit is too short then other things in the geometry of the suspension will be fawked opp.

With a strut car, short of changing control arm length and ball joint position, you are locked into a fairly narrow OAL range.

Having decent length suspenders will be no detriment for these other uses, particularly if the spring and dampers are well matched.

> >
> > Michael LeCompte
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 4, 2008 by
> > pikespeakgtx.
>
> Got ya Michael. I am all for not spending $2k at
> this point; makes no sense to me either. I like
> the overall path you are on. And the learning
> thing is good too; one may not do it perfectly but
> one sure learns a ton; it's like an investment in
> your knowledge future for rally/race. I sure have
> done a lot of goofy things to get by, $$-wise.
>
> But I still want to try to nudge you towards
> thinking some more about selling the present
> inserts and getting something with a decent stroke
> (and presumably longer overall extend length). I
> think you are probably in for a lot of
> dissappointment, and probably a serious low-rider.
> With short stroke, you will need short stiff
> springs, and you may then you have to look at the
> possible situation of the struts extending beyond
> the free length of the springs, and thus the
> springs will drop off the perches. Probably not a
> disaster for the springs or struts, but another
> handling issue.

Nothing a pair of "helper springs can't cure, $27-28 each.

Do you know the overall length of
> the strut inserts you have there, versus a stock
> unit?
>
> Let me ask this: when you lop off the stock
> perches, and weld on the collars, do you think you
> can work it to put in longer struts later? It will
> probably take some threaded collars that are
> longish to allow for this. (I have not looked at
> what you have been investigating). Think about
> it.

He could slide the yellow covers off, and press bronze bushings into the existing tubes, and weld in a .345" fat waher drilled and tapped to the thread in the bottom of the assembly. For the 40/41mm stuff I do its M10 x 1, not sure what those things are.
(Bilstein edumacation time students. Bilstein PNs have numbers telling you what the internal piston diameter is so a 50mm rear shock will be "B46" for a 46mm piston, the 40/41 stuff is B36, these things are P (for "patron" German for cartridge) 30s)
That would be a much stronger set up, just need some bushings about 1.25-1.5" OAL time 2 per side.
>
> BTW, just curious for my own thought processes
> here: How do you plan to retain the struts in the
> body? Is there an internal thread in the top of
> the body with a retaining ring? If so, and the
> tops of the collars extend above the top of the
> body to get a decent ride height with short, stiff
> springs, do you have a way to tighten any such
> collar? (Since it will be down inside the collar,
> and you can grab it with a normal wrench......) If
> not, you have to put the collar below the top of
> the body, and this will force you to use longer
> springs, or ride REALLY low.....Just trying to
> think the geometries of this through.

See above for simple solution
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.
>

So what are the dampoing values of the fronts and rears?

---

Monika Hawkinson
Seattle, WA

> IF the shit is too short then other things in the
> geometry of the suspension will be fawked opp.

John I wish I knew the exact dampening settings. I only know that they were revalved for a gtx and that it was a setting that was stiff but not pound the crap out of you on the street.

My guess is I doubt they went crazy with the valving. (ST springs-the only after market springs sold in the U.S. for the GTX were 275#) It's highly likely they were valved based on those numbers. It's definitely a sealed surface setup.

I don't know of any way to physically tell what valveing is in there short of sending them to bilstien which costs $$. Do you know any tricks?

Just to clarify The overall physical length of the strut will be the exact same. It's just they're isn't as much stroke. So it won't make the geometry that bad, correct?

I'm thinking stiff 5" springs at this point with machined steel spacers if needed to adjust ride height, that are pretty dang stiff like right around 300lb/200lb. To get off cheap. like $200 bucks cheap. And not waste any more money on these things.


>
> With a strut car, short of changing control arm
> length and ball joint position, you are locked
> into a fairly narrow OAL range.

What's OAL range?

>
> Having decent length suspenders will be no
> detriment for these other uses, particularly if
> the spring and dampers are well matched.


I'd like to get a setup like you make in the future.

---

Michael LeCompte

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see what you're saying about neededing extra
> thread length above the extension tube or housing
> if I'm to run short springs, but why not just use
> longer springs?
>
> Michael LeCompte

Nothing off the top of my head. I tend to get stuck in my thinking at times with the ideas around stock style springs in the stock perches, where stiff means short. The only thing that might occur with a long spring could be if they bend out of alignment; dunno if this is really a problem but I would think you would need to keep the perches good and flat/straight.

Regards,
Mark B.

> Especially galling when people talk your ears off about their
> obscure French car for a couple of hours telling
> you why they want to keep certain parts of their
> stuff cause that's what whoever did 30 years ago
> but want it to work like modern, and then they go
> to their obscure websites and complain that "JVL
> is real hard to work with"--- and then come back
> after slagging you and ask for more design info.
> VERY LAME.

Wow - it's terrible when those SOB's with obscure french cars ruin it for the rest of us with obscure french cars... HEY... wait a minute...

Here's the post I made in question after first finding rally anarchy and the work that JVL was doing. http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=626&hl=high+end+suspension
But after checking around with various contacts I still had in the rally world, there was such a difference of opinion I had to temper my enthusiasm as I was still going on third party info.

Sorry JVL, but I don't know you from Adam - so I felt I had to add a mild warning just in case there was some truth to comments. (From multiple sources to boot.) Apologies if it offended you - but I did state it as conjecture - an unknown since I don't know you at all and was advising people to trust me in suggesting your work.

As for me "talking your ear off" - I submit exhibit A: http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?2,18301 I did enjoy the conversation very much, but hardly fair to say I talked your ear off! lol

I have grown to have tremendous respect for you and the knowledge you freely give to other enthusiasts. Unfortunately for me - I'm very much in the position of the OP and as nice as it would be to work with you to set my car up with your suspension, it's just not an affordable option for the next 5 years or so.

So while you may disagree with my decisions to build a budget system using modified stock components - it's an entirely proven set up that's currently used with success in Australia and Greece - so while it is 22 year old technology - it's still very much a capable set up that costs a fraction of a purpose built set up. As for coming back for design info - that makes no sense. I'm just looking for compenents to assemble a known good suspension - I have no need for any "design info" for what I want to do.

You'll also notice that I use the same login name, and I put my name on every post. I stand by what I wrote as it has to be taken in the context in which it was written. I do apologise as the post was not meant to "slag you off", I was merely trying to convey the info I had at the time.

Say the word and I'll happily delete the post there if you wish.

Sorry for the off topic - but I wanted to address JVL's comment.

Rabin

Hey Michael,

Here is a recommendation if you are stuck with using these struts:
1) Assume the damping rates are what you think, and will be matched to 275 lb/in sping rates. I would normally think 25# lower on the rate if in doubt, on the philosophy of better to be a bit over-damped than under-damped, IMO. But, since prevent damage to these short struts may be an important factor here, I would stay with 275 or 300 #/in. As for the shock rates, unless you get them on a shock machine, or find other info like a receipt, or a PN suffix that someone can figure out, I can't imagine how anyone in the galaxy can help you any more on this point. Even if you DO know the damping rates, you then need to get charts to match a shock rate to a spring rate. I dunno where those are.....Again, you are pretty much on your own to figure/guess the right springs rates at this point.
2) Weigh the front corners of the car and average them together. Or weight the whole front end and divide by 2. Either way, you end up with the wieght on each front corner. Do the same for the rears.
3) Divide the corner weighta by the spring rates you select to get the spring compression from free length. This will be close enough to get you in the ballpark.
4) You now need to figure out what ride height you can get. This will ultimately be set by the shock travel you have; since it is so short, that will have to be the controlling factor. If 'twer me, I would set this up so that the front struts are at about 3.25" to 3.5" of compression travel under static conditions. For the rears, IMO set them at about 3.75" of compression travel. This gives more compression travel than rebound travel. My view is that hitting the stops on compression is going to be far more damaging than hitting the stops under droop conditions. Either will eventually blow out the shocks, but the compression hits can bend and break stuff.
5) With the front insert set at 3.25" of compression, you now can figure what exact length you have overall from the top pin to the bottom mount,and thus what the front ride height will be. Work out the same overal static length for the rears (with the selected rear strut static compression length), and then figure if the front to rear ride height is acceptable, and does not create some goofy rake on the car. You may need to adjust the rear insert static compresssion height to get rid of any rake on the car you do not like.
6) You then can work out the distance from the top perch to the lower, adjustable perch in mid-adjustment, based on the spring free length you select minus the spring compression you figured in step 3. This is the one final trade-off you can make, based on avialable collars and spring free lengths.

Once you establish the spring rates, it's just some straightforward math here, coupled with a lot of time spent carefully measuring things (and re-measuring; remember: measure twice, cut once!).

AND....none of the above is a gurantee of success. I.e., please don't come back to here complaining if this does not work out for any reason. You're starting with very suboptimal inserts, so this is the best I know how to deal with the situation. Free advice on a fourm is worth everything you pay for it!

And look at it this way: if you are learning, sometimes you just have to take the plunge. If this does work out, you will be a hero. (In your own mind at least!) If this does not work out, then you know better next time, and can come on this forum and be an expert as much as most of us are. Ultimately, it's not you life or health here, or that of your loved ones. So don't take it (or yourself) too serously if this does not work perfectly. You can always do it over.

Best of luck,
Mark B.