mk2 VW Bilstein Rally Struts: What's the secret?

So I have a 1987 VW GTI with Bilstein struts. The front inserts are bent so I am trying to source replacements, but running into a lot of difficulty. The car was built several previous owners ago. Here's what I have: The housings are the Bilstein mk2 motorsport housings, part # VE3-4406. The inserts are stamped with part # VE3-4408, which are the sport struts for a mk4 Golf. However, when I ordered the same part #, the struts I received were much shorter. I called Bilstein and the tech told me to purchase the HD struts for the mk4 Golf, part # VE3-4407. He said these are the same as the 4408s, but without the internal limiter. So I returned the 4408s and bought the 4407s. However, the 4407s are still shorter than the original inserts I had in the car. Total length on my old inserts is 24" with 7" of travel. The 4407 inserts are 23.25" long with 6.5" of travel. Close, but I don't want to give up any travel without a fight.

I know plenty of people out there rally mk2 VWs with Bilstein suspension. So what inserts are you using in the front? The tech I spoke with at Bilstein says the 4407s can't be lenghtened. Yet I have them side by side in my garage with my old insert that has the same length tube, but a rod that is .75" longer with .5" more travel. So what's the secret?

Erik Christiansen Wrote:
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> So I have a 1987 VW GTI with Bilstein struts. The
> front inserts are bent so I am trying to source
> replacements, but running into a lot of
> difficulty. The car was built several previous
> owners ago. Here's what I have: The housings are
> the Bilstein mk2 motorsport housings, part #
> VE3-4406. The inserts are stamped with part #
> VE3-4408, which are the sport struts for a mk4
> Golf. However, when I ordered the same part #,
> the struts I received were much shorter. I called
> Bilstein and the tech told me to purchase the HD
> struts for the mk4 Golf, part # VE3-4407. He said
> these are the same as the 4408s, but without the
> internal limiter. So I returned the 4408s and
> bought the 4407s. However, the 4407s are still
> shorter than the original inserts I had in the
> car. Total length on my old inserts is 24" with
> 7" of travel. The 4407 inserts are 23.25" long
> with 6.5" of travel. Close, but I don't want to
> give up any travel without a fight.
>
> I know plenty of people out there rally mk2 VWs
> with Bilstein suspension. So what inserts are you
> using in the front? The tech I spoke with at
> Bilstein says the 4407s can't be lenghtened. Yet
> I have them side by side in my garage with my old
> insert that has the same length tube, but a rod
> that is .75" longer with .5" more travel. So
> what's the secret?


The secret of the faster VWs using Bilsteins is they call me.
206 431 9696

I have on the shelf as we speak inserts you could use with 185mm travel.

Running to machine shop to work on new tubes for some, coincidentally enough, VW boys. But call later this afternoon or evening.

What did you pay for the things you got?

And seriously, think about getting new bottom tubes and be done with it.
You MIGHT have inserts not engaging the the bottom bush if the bottom tubes were really intended for shorter inserts and you have longer ones in the tube.

Also before you start killing the top mount bearing, just break down and mod the damn thing and use the Subaru top mount with the NICE BALL BEARING.
Look around here maybe on the posts from William Timmins "Steel Solutions" for the top plate he's made to my spec so you can reinforce the top and have the hole and bolt circle for the Sub-a-rat mounting. $5 at better wrecking yards nationwide, operators are standing by!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Sport struts are shortened. I run the GroupA bilsteins currently but my upgrage is sitting in my garage which is what JVL just pointed out; a set of inverted bilsteined JVABs. If you want something nearly undestructable with cheap rebuilds that is what you should get!
As for the info on the other bilsteins, bilstein hds are similar with different valving.

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

So are the Bilstein HD's the "off the shelf" rally shock? While you need to Frankenstein up a combination to get the "best" rally shock combo?

My bilstein's aren't really blown yet... but when I do look to get replacements I need to know what path is the right one.

What type of spring rates and brands/tyep do you guys run front and rear for the MK2 chassis?

BillyElliot Wrote:
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> So are the Bilstein HD's the "off the shelf" rally
> shock?

They're too short in travel. Max 160mm.
Too little. Most of it gets used up in braking and THEN you hit bumps.
Bad.
I supply 185mm.
With a little strut tower "estensione", a normal thing in many places, you might be able to go even more but there is questions about CV joints being over limit at SOME POINT!


>While you need to Frankenstein up a
> combination to get the "best" rally shock combo?

Read that sentence. Translate into any Western European language including local dialects.

>
> My bilstein's aren't really blown yet... but when
> I do look to get replacements I need to know what
> path is the right one.

First since there is a lot of different stuff POST PHOTOS and check travel of what you have.

THEN we'ze can talk.

Just talked to a guy in LA and he has the too short stuff but already has slip over kit for the strut so in that case he doesn't really NEED to buy my Soooper Bitchin 4130 CrMo yummy tubes, but he does need LONGER travel.
>
> What type of spring rates and brands/tyep do you
> guys run front and rear for the MK2 chassis?

I have supplied 275 front and 175 MAX rear but that's with the specific inserts and shocks that I supply.
A whole lotta people been winning with my stuff, can't be TOOO FAR WRONG.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

>
> >While you need to Frankenstein up a
> > combination to get the "best" rally shock
> combo?
>
> Read that sentence. Translate into any Western
> European language including local dialects.
>

Sorry, I didn't turn off my engrish filter. I meant will instead of while. So the question was.... is the best rally shock a frankenstein combination of bits and pieces from various manufacturers/setups. From reading back on things, it appears that it is.

I'm pretty newb on suspension design (took engine courses while I got my engineering degree) so I'll post some pics and tell me what to measure and we'll go from there.

Thanks!

Depends on definition of best. There's some nice high high dollar stuff out there that probably outperforms the JVAB stuff, but not without spending 2-8 times the money. I 'could' get a set of Ohlins or Proflex for my car, or I could get four sets of John's stuff that perform well beyond what I need. I'll post video soon of me jumping my car on JVAB stuff on a 105 MPH jump that most people, regardless of what suspension they are on, lift for. I can also probably find the in-car from the same jump in a turbo Impreza on DMS done at about the same speed. I was in both cars (and why I knew I could do it without lifting) and there wasn't a difference.

---

Grant Hughes

BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >While you need to Frankenstein up a
> > > combination to get the "best" rally
> shock
> > combo?
> >
> > Read that sentence. Translate into any
> Western
> > European language including local dialects.
> >
>
> Sorry, I didn't turn off my engrish filter. I
> meant will instead of while. So the question
> was.... is the best rally shock a frankenstein
> combination of bits and pieces from various
> manufacturers/setups. From reading back on
> things, it appears that it is.
>
> I'm pretty newb on suspension design (took engine
> courses while I got my engineering degree) so I'll
> post some pics and tell me what to measure and
> we'll go from there.
>
> Thanks!


Billy, virtually every mono-tube shock or damper is just a variation of the original design that the Frenchman Dr. DeCarbon patented back in 1949. Pistons with piles of different diameter and thickness steel shims placed over holes which deflect upwards in a certain way depending on the stack. And on some high end things depending on the thing which limits the max deflection.
The ways they do the adjusters varies a tiny but but even there its basically a need valve in a seat, most the angle of the needle is changed.

So design being virtually the same, the next thing is the knowledge to selecta shim pack---which generates the resistance.

On nearly every brand out there but one, wnobody is told "this setting will generate xxxx force" and that one exception is Bilstein.
They stamp the force generated in their standard test (100mm stroke at 0,52 m/s unless you're Opel then it's 0,39 m/s) right into the body. That's the shorthand seen as 300/100. That is actually 3000/1000N.

But THAT info would be useless with some knowledge of the suitability of this shim stack vs that one.

And there we are greatly indebted to Ford Motorsport in Boreham, Essex for publishing over 20 years of spring and damper settings for cars from old school MKI and MkII Escort rwd cars, to MkIII fwd junk to rwd and 4wd Sierras, 4wd Escort Cossie in GpA and GpN, to RS2000 16V fwd F2 car to 1997 spec Escort Cosworth World Rally Car.

These cars cover in terms of size, weight, power, and even surface just about anything you or me will ever sit in in terms of drive configuration.

So with a little corrections from experience (since 1975 which I first started disassembling Bilsteins) we can factor in stuff like OK the damper is here relative to spindle and the car weight is X% more which oughtter mean we go a bit stiffer BUT the dood'z a rank noob so we should make it a bit softer, then VIOLA, manure!
We end up at a pretty reasonable guess of what to specify for the damper.

Now springs are pretty much springs despite all the pap written at every MFGs website, the spring making process and the marketplace demand they use materials damn near indentical so there's only the question of can we get the size, rate and length we want.

As for assembling an insert from here, a spring from there and then all the rest from say ME! what's inherently wrong with that if the individual parts are all very high quality? Indeed better quality than some more popular things out there?

Remember I WAS a club guy, I know that budget is really important and that we CAN'T afford to spend money twice, so even if it sucks to not be able to get 4 shocks first class gen=y-whine rally Bilsteins ( Like I could for my Saab forever) for under 300 bucks, in the even mid-term view, it's the best choice we can make.

Think of this: what I make is virtually a copy of what Ford and Subaru were using in the WRC in the early/mid 90s.
You think you are faster or harder than dem guys?
You need better than them, then?

If there was even a half decent lower cost alternative I'd tell you where to look, but there isn't any hot-shits out there.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John,

Out of curriosity, where did you get those spring rate numbers?

Thanks,

Rob

Heh, well I have the Hot-Shits and so far so good.

I asked around, people who had them basically said good things about them. Paid 1200 and had them on the car in three weeks. I've done about 7 rallies out West on them and hit some big things and no problems. Lost a hub carrier and replaced the control arms but the struts were fine. Everything is straight and no leaks. I did lose a bit of gas out of one strut which was found when I sent them back for a rebuild after 5 rallies due to a strut top which ate at some of the threads on the top of the piston.


Inexpensive, quick turn-around, and they work well enough for my slow ass on stage.

I bought them before I knew JVL so today I'd likely do things differently. But, I don't think I made the wrong decision in hindsight given my situation at the time. (I did get some scary warning PMs on SS afterall )

Hmm, sounds good! I'll see how my suspension fares through some rallycross and Sno*Drift and probably in a few months we'll talk about options. I've heard a lot about you, just never had the time to ask questions. Considering there's so much to learn as I am getting up to speed on the bag of tricks for a MK2 golf.

BillyElliot Wrote:

> I've heard a lot about you, just never had the
> time to ask questions.

I deny everything.
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So John, did you get my email? Do you think my housings will work? It sounds like the 185mm inserts will just barely engage the lower bushing.

Thanks!

Erik Christiansen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So John, did you get my email? Do you think my
> housings will work? It sounds like the 185mm
> inserts will just barely engage the lower
> bushing.
>
> Thanks!


Charge up that cell phone and give him a call.

Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:

> Charge up that cell phone and give him a call.


I actually had to plug in during the call.

---

"Time to unpimp ze auuto."





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