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Camshafts give me headaches

Posted by Carl S 
Carl S
Carl Seidel
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Camshafts give me headaches
April 03, 2006 08:22PM
So, I've been trying to degree a cam for the last couple hours tonight. But I'm not having much luck. I figured I could throw the cam in a spare head, slap the dial indimacator on a valve, bolt on the degree wheel and away I go. Well I'm new to this and I'm still working on figuring it out so I figured I'd try a cam I had specs for and see if I can get mine to match, so that I know I'm doing it right.

But my results arnt matching. I think I know why, though. The head has hydraulic lifters, but since theres no oil pressure I have some valve lash in there which is throwing off my results. Sound right? So whadda I do about it?
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Pete
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 03, 2006 10:04PM
If you can't rig up a spacer (some sort of bolt/nut arrangement maybe?) to take the place of the HLA, try using a reeeeally weak spring for the valvespring.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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Carl S
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 04, 2006 04:42PM
Ok, thanks. I was thinking just stuffing feeler gauges between the lifer and lobe until its good. That might be easier than a nut and bolt inside the lifter. I'm not sure how a weak valve spring would help me out, but I'll think about it some. I wont be able to get to it today, but maybe thursday or friday if I dont work too much overtime.
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Carl S
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 06, 2006 10:47PM
Ok, so I think I got it working tonight. I was able to duplicate (within a percent or so) the factory specs on my tester after some modifications to a lifter smiling smiley

So now I'm looking for some valve timing advice.
I was graphing various aftermarket cam sets and found a timing value for the new intake cam that comes real close to a set of mild aftermarket cams.
So heres my numbers for comparison:
The aftermarket cams are the Techtonics Street Cam set, specs at .050" lift
Intake:
Duration 214
IVO -3.5 BTDC
IVC 37.5 ADBC
LC 110.5*
Lift: .423"

Exhaust:
Duration 214
EVO 37.5 BBDC
EVC -3.5 ATDC
LC 110.5*
Lift: .423"

And my dual exhaust cams would be
Intake:
Duration 215
IVO -4.5 BTDC
IVC 39.5 ADBC
LC 112*
Lift: .402"

Exhaust:
Duration: 215
EVO 39.5 BBDC
EVC -4.5 ATDC
LC 112*
Lift: .402"

I dont really know much about how cam timing effects the power and scavanging effects and what not, so if anyone has any advice on what is "generally" done, I'm open to it. In any case I've already learned a lot about cams so its been worth it to me so far, if I gain a few eich pee's in the end, all the better.
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Carl S
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 08, 2006 11:13AM
No one has any advice, any rules of thumb?
C'mon guys, pull yourselves away from the morton soap opera and lets talk cars.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 08, 2006 02:30PM
Carl, I think you've said you want to do this anyway because it doesn't cost anything. What are we supposed to say?

What's generally done is you get something with more lift and timing. 308 degrees at the Euro standard of .010" lash

Then you compensate for the loss of compression the later intake valve closing causes and you rip snort away.
But that costs dough.

I really have lost track of what it is you want.



John Vanlandingham
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Carl S
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 08, 2006 03:18PM
I was just curious if anyone had any suggestions on where to set the cam. Like rules of thumb for IVO/IVC vs rpm range. I have my ideas about where to set it, but I'm always open to more advice. I was just going to try and copy what some aftermarket companies have done because they've done all the testing and crap so it will work. I guess basically I'm looking for someone who knows about this stuff to tell me I'm on the right track.
smiling smiley
Oh, and the exhaust cam has more lift and duration than the stock US intake and euro intake cams. So it should be a step up, although nothing serious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2006 03:19PM by Carl S.
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Pete
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 08:38AM
I don't see how the exhaust cams would be a benefit, looking at the numbers.

Okay they have one (1) degree more duration, which ammounts to "not enough to worry about, probably part of production tolerance" as far as difference goes. But they have something like 5% less lift. Lift is what you want to have, duration is more or less a necessary evil because you can't whack the valves open in 1 degree, hold it open for X degrees, then snap it shut in 1 degree... Plus the aftermarket cams have a tigher lobe separation (and I understand you can't tweak the LC like other DOHCs?) which is generally a Good Thing.

Of course, I could be wrong and there could be info I'm not seeing.





Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

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1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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Carl S
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 09:45AM
Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course, I could be wrong and there could be
> info I'm not seeing.

The info that you're not seeing is that the stock US intake cam has .354" of lift and 195* of duration, which made 123hp in the 1.8 liter and 135hp in the 2 liter. Then the euro intake cam has .378" of lift and 207* of duration, and that cam made 139hp in the 1.8 liter. The exhaust cam has more lift and duration than both, similar in duration to the techtonics camset I listed above, though slightly less lift. But the techtonics cam set is based off the cams in the euro-only ABF code 2 liter 16v that made 150hp. So I figure if I get this cam in there right I may be a bit north of 140hp with my new 2 liter, which will be a nice step up from the dieing (well, dead now) 1.8 liter I had in there. Enough background info for ya!? tongue sticking out smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2006 09:49AM by Carl S.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 11:13AM
Carl,
I am looking at an KarlSchmidt "Kolbenschmitt" Master catalog, alles auf Deutche weiss du, and according to these geezers, and they are an alternate OEM supplier, the figures you are quoting are all wrong.

They sounded too high to my memory, but you know the line "My knees are grey, my eyes are bent....."

Heres some difference other than cams to give you a hint (a really strong hint, but I don't want to hint too strongly, cause I don't know you too well and man do SOME of you guys out ther (not YOU!!) get all offended if I gently suggest things too gently.)

1,6 --1588ccm, USA ausführung mit K-Jetronic 8,2:1 90PS SAE
1,6---1588ccm, mit K-Jetronic 9.5:1 110 PS

1,8---1781ccm USA ausführung mit K-Jet 8.5:1 91PS SAE
1,8---1781ccm mit K-Jet 10:1 112 PS

1,8---1781ccm KA-Jetronic mit Kat 16 ventiler 10:1 129 PS

Ist der begriff klar?

Es ist nicht nur nockenwelle aber auch der verdichtung, ja sonder der verdichtung das leigt hinter der klart höcher PS stärke der EU ausführung motoren.

>>>Mehr wichtig ist der drehmoment<<<<< und heir auch seht man hocher ziffer.

Pardon the poor German, been 27 years since i was regularly speking it.
But it should be clear the point eh.

(are you going do go whine on SS.com that I'm too mean???? 8) ????)



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Carl S
Carl Seidel
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 12:04PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl,
> I am looking at an KarlSchmidt "Kolbenschmitt"
> Master catalog, alles auf Deutche weiss du, and
> according to these geezers, and they are an
> alternate OEM supplier, the figures you are
> quoting are all wrong.
>
> They sounded too high to my memory, but you know
> the line "My knees are grey, my eyes are
> bent....."
>
> Heres some difference other than cams to give you
> a hint (a really strong hint, but I don't want to
> hint too strongly, cause I don't know you too well
> and man do SOME of you guys out ther (not YOU!!)
> get all offended if I gently suggest things too
> gently.)
>
> 1,6 --1588ccm, USA ausführung mit K-Jetronic
> 8,2:1 90PS SAE
> 1,6---1588ccm, mit K-Jetronic
> 9.5:1 110 PS
>
> 1,8---1781ccm USA ausführung mit K-Jet
> 8.5:1 91PS SAE
> 1,8---1781ccm mit K-Jet 10:1
> 112 PS
>
> 1,8---1781ccm KA-Jetronic mit Kat 16 ventiler
> 10:1 129 PS

Thats the only 16v one you listed, the rest are 8v as far as I can tell. 8v are pukey and slow tongue sticking out smiley And this one would be the euro-spec PL code engine, basically I think it just doesnt have a cat. The KR code one is the one with the 139hp and eurospec camshaft, aslo had the no O2 sensor version of the cis, sometimes a larger intake manifold, and no cat. So yeah, I know there are other differences than just the cams, but I'm optimistic! And none of that changes the fact that the exhaust cam is larger than any stock intake cams. Plus I plan on swapping in the cis-e motronic (from the regular jetronic it has now) and getting a chip for it, and I have some fancy dancy downpipe thats just gotta be worth some eich pees! (insert tongue in cheek)

>
> Ist der begriff klar?
>
> Es ist nicht nur nockenwelle aber auch der
> verdichtung, ja sonder der verdichtung das leigt
> hinter der klart höcher PS stärke der EU
> ausführung motoren.
>
> >>>Mehr wichtig ist der
> drehmoment<<<<< und heir auch seht
> man hocher ziffer.
>
> Pardon the poor German, been 27 years since i was
> regularly speking it.
> But it should be clear the point eh.
>
> (are you going do go whine on SS.com that I'm too
> mean???? 8) ????)

Nah, only that you guys get distracted by drama instead of talking about cars tongue sticking out smiley

>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca=

But I guess if no one has any suggestions for timing them I'll just give something a shot. I've got a couple extra cams and gears to play around with, and my gtech can at least compair different setups to each other, and I'll let you guys know how my cheap hp quest goes. But for now I gotta go weld up and exhaust on my friends wrx. Sidepipe styles.
Thanks for the help.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 12:53PM
Why note shove the hot exhaust cam on BOTH sides and time it like a INTAKE cam and see what harpoons.

And the OEM catalog was a 1990 edition and only listed that single 16v EU spec.

My point was that the biggest return on investment is first to have some compression in the motor.
And 8v motors are not slow per se. I've seen plenty that would make you shit the bed.

Here's a hilarious note:

52nd Network Q RAC Rally
Round 8 of the FIA 2-Litre World Championship for Manufacturers 1996 (2-Litre Championship only)
Start: 23 November 1996 in Cheltenham
Finish: 25 November 1996 in Cheltenham
Distance: 1818 km including 415 km over 27 special stages
Special stage surface: Gravel with some asphalt on the second day
Participants: 182 teams at the start, 81 at the finish

Final classification
Pos Nr Driver Nation Car Group Pos Total time
Codriver Nation Entrant Class Pos Behind winner
1 5 Armin Schwarz Ger Toyota Celica GT-Four A 1 4:46.50
Denis Giraudet Fra Toyota Castrol Team 8 1

2 18 Masao Kamioka Jpn Subaru Impreza 555 A 2 4:54.42
Kevin Gormley Gbr Team Impreza Recaro Fujitsubo 8 2

7.52

3 27 Stig Blomqvist Swe Å koda Felicia Kit Car A 3 5:02.02
2L Benny Melander Swe Å koda Motorsport 6 1 15.12


4 25 Mark Higgins Gbr Nissan Sunny GTI A 4 5:09.11
2L Phil Mills Gbr Nissan Motorsports Europe 7 22.21


5 16 Grégoire De Mévius Bel Renault Mégane Maxi A 5 5:11.20
2L Jean-Marc Fortin Bel Renault Dealer Rallying 7 2 24.30
6 50 Jeremy Easson Gbr Ford Escort RS Cosworth N 1 5:13.59
Alun Cook Gbr 4 1 27.09
7 37 Dominic Buckley Gbr Subaru Impreza WRX N 2 5:16.54
Neil Ewing Gbr 4 2 30.04
8 15 Harri Rovanperä Fin Seat Ibiza GTI 16V A 6 5:20.40
2L Juha Repo Fin Seat Sport 7 3 33.50
9 17 Erwin Weber Ger Seat Ibiza GTI 16V A 7 5:22.24
2L Manfred Hiemer


The motor in that 3rd place car driven by a aging Blomqvist was a good ol
VW 1600 8v motor.

There were 99 GpA or GpN turbo 4wd cars.

And 8v 1600 VW motor.

Notice what was just behind?????
A Nissan Sunny full nasty SR20DE engined thing driven by a young and agressive Mark Higgins.

I love to drag out this result.
I poked some fun at Blomqvist a couple years after this asking if he thought he could have done the same with what he won overall with 25 years earlier, a Saab V4 like I have, and he said, Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa this was lighter and had better box and brakes!
Didn't mention the motor.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Carl S
Carl Seidel
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 05:38PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why note shove the hot exhaust cam on BOTH sides
> and time it like a INTAKE cam and see what
> harpoons.

Holy! Brilliant!
psst... That is what I'm doing, or at least trying.

>
> And the OEM catalog was a 1990 edition and only
> listed that single 16v EU spec.
>
> My point was that the biggest return on investment
> is first to have some compression in the motor.
> And 8v motors are not slow per se. I've seen
> plenty that would make you shit the bed.

Dont show me, I have enough cleaning of doo doo from my new kitties. But I believe you. If I had money I'd do an engine up right, but for right now I pretty much (barely) have enough just to run events, so whatever little things I can do between events I'm going to, no matter how little of increase it gives me. The building is almost as fun as the racing, for me.

>
> Here's a hilarious note:
>
> 52nd Network Q RAC Rally
> Round 8 of the FIA 2-Litre World Championship for
> Manufacturers 1996 (2-Litre Championship only)
> Start: 23 November 1996 in Cheltenham
> Finish: 25 November 1996 in Cheltenham
> Distance: 1818 km including 415 km over 27 special
> stages
> Special stage surface: Gravel with some asphalt on
> the second day
> Participants: 182 teams at the start, 81 at the
> finish
>
> Final classification
> Pos Nr Driver Nation Car Group Pos Total
> time
> Codriver Nation Entrant Class Pos Behind
> winner
> 1 5 Armin Schwarz Ger Toyota Celica GT-Four A
> 1 4:46.50
> Denis Giraudet Fra Toyota Castrol Team 8
> 1
>
> 2 18 Masao Kamioka Jpn Subaru Impreza 555 A
> 2 4:54.42
> Kevin Gormley Gbr Team Impreza Recaro
> Fujitsubo 8 2
>
> 7.52
>
> 3 27 Stig Blomqvist Swe Å koda Felicia Kit Car
> A 3 5:02.02
> 2L Benny Melander Swe Å koda Motorsport 6 1
> 15.12
>
>
> 4 25 Mark Higgins Gbr Nissan Sunny GTI A 4
> 5:09.11
> 2L Phil Mills Gbr Nissan Motorsports Europe
> 7 22.21
>
>
> 5 16 Grégoire De Mévius Bel Renault Mégane
> Maxi A 5 5:11.20
> 2L Jean-Marc Fortin Bel Renault Dealer
> Rallying 7 2 24.30
> 6 50 Jeremy Easson Gbr Ford Escort RS Cosworth
> N 1 5:13.59
> Alun Cook Gbr 4 1 27.09
> 7 37 Dominic Buckley Gbr Subaru Impreza WRX N
> 2 5:16.54
> Neil Ewing Gbr 4 2 30.04
> 8 15 Harri Rovanperä Fin Seat Ibiza GTI 16V A
> 6 5:20.40
> 2L Juha Repo Fin Seat Sport 7 3 33.50
> 9 17 Erwin Weber Ger Seat Ibiza GTI 16V A 7
> 5:22.24
> 2L Manfred Hiemer
>
>
> The motor in that 3rd place car driven by a aging
> Blomqvist was a good ol
> VW 1600 8v motor.
>
> There were 99 GpA or GpN turbo 4wd cars.
>
> And 8v 1600 VW motor.
>
> Notice what was just behind?????
> A Nissan Sunny full nasty SR20DE engined thing
> driven by a young and agressive Mark Higgins.
>
> I love to drag out this result.
> I poked some fun at Blomqvist a couple years
> after this asking if he thought he could have done
> the same with what he won overall with 25 years
> earlier, a Saab V4 like I have, and he said,
> Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa this was lighter and had
> better box and brakes!
> Didn't mention the motor.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Just think what stig could have done in a 16v! grinning smiley
Sure the 8v is great and all, definately bulletproof (I had one that took a chunk of a socket through the intake port and is still running in the hands of the kid I sold it to) but if you put the same amount of work into a 16v the 16v will be more powerful.

I do have a wee bit more compression than stock. The head was decked a bit (not sure how much) but my chambers measured 46cc, so I think that puts my cr at 10.4:1

I'll let you know how it turns out.


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Parry
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 09, 2006 11:33PM
Hey carl, as I think I told you I also have a 2.0 16v mk2 GTI.

Just put the exhaust cam in as intake cam. A buddy of mine did just that and said it he found it to be about the same as running the euro intake cam. As you said, it is cheap enough. It WILL give you a few ponies and help liven up the top end.

Are you running the 1.8 head or the 2.0? Slightly different, as I'm sure you know. 1.8 may give you a few more hp and help top end due to the port shapes, but it also raises compression to like 10.6:1. If you shave the 1.8 head like, uhhh (drat, i just looked it up) .015 that should put you at around 11:1 on your 2.0 bottom end.

By the way...as you shave the head, your cam timing retards...like 1/2 degree for .015 shaved. Not that anyone cares, you don't drive around at 2k in the thing.

On the subject of headers:

I currently run a 4-1 brospeed header on my vehicle, and 2 1/4 exhaust. You could probably go larger then both of them, and I think we are going to experiment with doing exactly that. I don't think a "race" dual downpipe you have is worth jack shit. My fancy header is barely worth jack shit (but was very cheap used heh heh).

I did not run a chip in my car when it was on motronic. I'm not really sure how great the chips are, but I think going to chipped motronic is a little bit of a joke. It is better then the 1.8l CIS-E, but still not real fuel injection. I am not sure it would be any better then your CIS-E with a coolant temp sensor fooling fuel enrichment setup, which you can make yourself with some radioshack parts. We are experimenting with running my car on an edelbrock performer 4 barrel with vaccuum secondaries. The stock management will deliver spark just as if it were still running on CIS, but your fuel obviously comes from the carb. If you are interested in this, I can tell you more about it.

Hope that helps.
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Carl S
Carl Seidel
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Re: Camshafts give me headaches
April 10, 2006 06:48AM
Parry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey carl, as I think I told you I also have a 2.0
> 16v mk2 GTI.
>
> Just put the exhaust cam in as intake cam. A
> buddy of mine did just that and said it he found
> it to be about the same as running the euro intake
> cam. As you said, it is cheap enough. It WILL
> give you a few ponies and help liven up the top
> end.

I'm gonna. Though from measuring the cam, putting it in directly without any modification its still about 10* retarted from ideal. So its not worth it to put it in unless you do time it right, which I'm going to do.

>
> Are you running the 1.8 head or the 2.0? Slightly
> different, as I'm sure you know. 1.8 may give you
> a few more hp and help top end due to the port
> shapes, but it also raises compression to like
> 10.6:1. If you shave the 1.8 head like, uhhh
> (drat, i just looked it up) .015 that should put
> you at around 11:1 on your 2.0 bottom end.

1.8 head on the 2 liter being a benefit is an urban myth. I havnt had a chance to measure the combustion chambers on any of my 1.8 heads, but from other people that have they come out just about the same as 2.0 heads.

>
> By the way...as you shave the head, your cam
> timing retards...like 1/2 degree for .015 shaved.
> Not that anyone cares, you don't drive around at
> 2k in the thing.

I didnt think it was that much, but I'm not really concerned in any case.

>
> On the subject of headers:
>
> I currently run a 4-1 brospeed header on my
> vehicle, and 2 1/4 exhaust. You could probably go
> larger then both of them, and I think we are going
> to experiment with doing exactly that. I don't
> think a "race" dual downpipe you have is worth
> jack shit. My fancy header is barely worth jack
> shit (but was very cheap used heh heh).

Well considering brospeed is crap tongue sticking out smiley I'm not surprised it didnt do you any good. My street car saw a decent gain from the race downpipe, and I've got one kicking around here so I figure why not. Of course in a perfect world we'd all be running the techtonics race header, or those swedish things jvl is always pushing.

>
> I did not run a chip in my car when it was on
> motronic. I'm not really sure how great the chips
> are, but I think going to chipped motronic is a
> little bit of a joke. It is better then the 1.8l
> CIS-E, but still not real fuel injection. I am
> not sure it would be any better then your CIS-E
> with a coolant temp sensor fooling fuel
> enrichment setup, which you can make yourself with
> some radioshack parts. We are experimenting with
> running my car on an edelbrock performer 4 barrel
> with vaccuum secondaries. The stock management
> will deliver spark just as if it were still
> running on CIS, but your fuel obviously comes from
> the carb. If you are interested in this, I can
> tell you more about it.
>
> Hope that helps.

The chipped motronic is another case of why not. I've got the whole setup in a box, chipped ecus can be had for $50 used. And the cis-e motronic is a better system than the jetronic. Sure its no efi, but hell, I cant afford megasquirt either, so I'm making due with what I have.


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