Tubular VW subframes--pics etc

OK, so as some of you know, Eric Langbein has been helping us to develop a tubular subframe that fits mk2 and mk3 VWs in order to make the front of the car stronger, lighter & easier to service. Soon he will be doing tubular control arm set to go along with these.

Pictured below is the first version of the subframe. This one has no motor mounts and will be in our TDI powered mk2. I will add a pendulum mount once the motor is in place. There is already a second generation in the works that will be even lighter and stronger.

Weight: 13.8lbs
Stock weight: 21.8lbs
Savings: 8lbs
Strength: Increased significantly
Coolness: Very high :-)

Contact me for Eric's contact information if you are interested.

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Pics

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Josh,

That is a nice looking bit of kit! It is not really what I was thinking of when I read the first post. I was expecting the structure to be forward of the frame horns. How does this sub frame integrate with the skid plate and radiator core support?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Josh, looks good. You already know I'm in for 2

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-Jason

My order is already in. The original subframe in my car tore apart leaving me unable to control the car. I will post photos tomorrow. Highly worth the money. Looking forward to seeing the second generation!

Rallymech Wrote:
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> Josh,
>
> That is a nice looking bit of kit! It is not
> really what I was thinking of when I read the
> first post. I was expecting the structure to be
> forward of the frame horns. How does this sub
> frame integrate with the skid plate and radiator
> core support?

Depends on what you call the subframe.... This is the K-frame/subframe/suspension crossmember.

This is where you attach the rear of the skidplate of course. Front subframe/radiator-support/front skid-mount will come later when we are working on all the plumbing & cooling.

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

So there will essentially be two structures? Front and rear? Will they connect?

My feeling has always been that the K frame/sub frame bends because it is not well connected to the body. I suppose that in the end this becomes a "which bends first" question.

When I worked for VWMS, the grp.A GTI did not have sub frame problems, even on the Safari Rally. Our sub frame was only lightly strengthened.

When I had thought about doing something similar in the past, I was looking at one complete frame that ties together the suspension mounting points, engine mounts, skid plate mounts and the frame horns.

None of this is to say that your design is bad. I think that it will work very well. I am just interested to know what you are thinking and how you arrived at your design.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Currenlty our skidplate frame connects the frame rails to the K-frame near the front control arm bolts. We will be redesigning this to incorporate the front radiator mounts and get rid of another 15lbs or so of un-needed stamped-steel goodies. You can see a picture of the one on our current car with stock subframes & k-frame here:



OMP made something similar but smaller for lots of the VWMS cars back in the day. They were inteneded only as a brace and not as a skid-plate frame,


This subframe was designed because the stock K-frames tend to break easily--Just ask me (cracked), Rob Mcfadyen (broken), Matt Bushore (broken 2?) and others.. It is hard to find good rust-free ones at the junk yard and new replacements are $450 or more. For that price, why not build something that is lighter and stronger and gives more groud clearance???

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

"For that price, why not build something that is lighter and stronger and gives more groud clearance???" I agree!

Do you know about what the final price will be?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Josh,

Looking at your images I see the rear sub frame bolt (also picks up the rear A arm) that is cantilevered still relative to the body, I broke this bolt a number of times, I wonder if a tab should come up and support the bottom edge and then take the load back to the stamped box beam running under the seats so it is not cantilevered? This tab would need to be bolted to the box beam as it would be removed to remove the A-arm and sub frame.

This was a M10 bolt, that I was upgrading to a M12 but due to a miss communication with the machinist they made M10 bobbins to replace the captured nut in the foot well not M12 so I did not try the M12 bolt solution to see if that would be another way to solve the issue.

Derek

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In the long run reality always wins.

If you're doing a new subframe and control arms, why not make that bolt just a bolt holding the subframe in, and give the control arm a rear bushing like the front bushing?

I know, I know - parts swappability.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Eric is finishing up Version 2 (along with 2.5 new BMW cages).

You can contact him at "eric langbein" <ericlangbein with gmail> for details and pricing.



Derek, I am pretty sure that rear bolt is already an M12 x 1.5 (fine thread) bolt in stock form. Maybe they were smaller on the earlier mk2 shells?

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Could be I was braking the M12's and needed to go even larger...

Could be I should try not to slam the wheel into rock walls at speed...

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In the long run reality always wins.

derek Wrote:
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> Could be I was braking the M12's and needed to go
> even larger...
>
> Could be I should try not to slam the wheel into
> rock walls at speed...
>
>

Meh, when that happens just bolt the a-arm to the skidplate with an old wheel stud. I hear that works pretty good.

I'm bringing this back from the grave! Any way I might be able to see some pics of the "new" design? Possibly some solidworks files? Really want to lighten the front of the ol' mk3 but not quite willing to cut the front of the cars frame off, yet...