Spring rates and setup for snow?

I'm trying to get ready for Perce-Neige, which will hopefully be a snow rally. I'm wondering what the best option would be for spring rates?

I currently run 12' free length, 300lb/in front, 175lb/in rear for gravel (because that's what JVL provided!) and it seemed to be pretty well balanced and ate up the bumps!

I was thinking 225lb/in and 125lb/in, both 14" free length... why? Because that's what I guessed! 14" because I can fit a longer spring (may need to pre-load a couple of turns), and I think that with the softer rates I'll need the extra length to avoid any possibility of coil bind if I get to use full travel...

As far as the rest of the setup goes... I only have the one front sway bar option, which I ran on gravel. I think for snow I'll leave it off althgether.
On the rear I'm not running a sway bar.

Any thoughts, comments?

Thanks...Martin.

MRWmotorsports Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm trying to get ready for Perce-Neige, which
> will hopefully be a snow rally. I'm wondering what
> the best option would be for spring rates?
>
> I currently run 12' free length, 300lb/in front,
> 175lb/in rear for gravel (because that's what JVL
> provided!) and it seemed to be pretty well
> balanced and ate up the bumps!
>
> I was thinking 225lb/in and 125lb/in, both 14"
> free length... why? Because that's what I guessed!
> 14" because I can fit a longer spring (may need
> to pre-load a couple of turns), and I think that
> with the softer rates I'll need the extra length
> to avoid any possibility of coil bind if I get to
> use full travel...


Sounds good on the rates Martin but with those rates the dampers and inserts will be way stiffer than needed. If the temps look like they'll be below say 25F and they can be I know, think hard about using some old road car st and chop up the seats to use the springs.uff
>
> As far as the rest of the setup goes... I only
> have the one front sway bar option, which I ran on
> gravel. I think for snow I'll leave it off
> althgether.
> On the rear I'm not running a sway bar.
>
> Any thoughts, comments?
>
> Thanks...Martin.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:> >
> > I was thinking 225lb/in and 125lb/in, both
> 14"
> > free length... why? Because that's what I
> guessed!
> > 14" because I can fit a longer spring (may
> need
> > to pre-load a couple of turns), and I think
> that
> > with the softer rates I'll need the extra
> length
> > to avoid any possibility of coil bind if I
> get to
> > use full travel...
>
>
> Sounds good on the rates Martin but with those
> rates the dampers and inserts will be way stiffer
> than needed. If the temps look like they'll be
> below say 25F and they can be I know, think hard
> about using some old road car st and chop up the
> seats to use the springs.uff

Yeah, I'd been thinking of this because you'd suggested it already (see I do listen sometimes, just don't always agree!), but it's not that easy...

I took stock of my road car shit, I have some good fronts, but only really crappy 250,000+km leaky rears. So I'd have to buy rears. I'm sure I could find some reasonable used ones but then they won't fit my rear uprights because I modified them for the lower mounting of the Bilstiens.. so I'd have to change uprights. I have some I know, but they'd all need to be cleaned up, checked over, maybe new bearings etc. I don't have the time to do all that and re-build the shell!

So I'm really hoping that the temp doesn't go too low... 25F? that's only -4C that's balmy.. did you mean -25F?


I'm also considering a backup in case Blistien fucks me and doesn't deliver front inserts... Could I use the rear Bilstiens with some modified stock fronts?

And when you say chop off the seats and use... Do you mean use a coil over sleeve and all the stuff off the JVL coils? If thats the case I'd better not get 14" springs as they'd be way too frigging long, even if they were sitting on the ears!

What to do, what to do...

-Martin.

personally. i would have though you are a little stiff in the front to begin with. I'd think a softer spring up front might let the car rotate a little better..i know i know, just mash the gas, but sometimes it is nice to turn the wheel and have it respond nicely.

your predicted rates for the snow is about right i'd figure.

a word of caution....finding 14" springs ain't that easy up here. Bicknell does stock just about every variation of 12", but i don't think they stock 14"ers.


From my 7 years of Rubber to Ice racing experience, i can tell you that you definately do need weight transfer to get good grip. Espeically when you aren't running studs.

My concern with going with stock suspension is bending them over jumps and so on. Apart from that, it's probably about the best in terms of weight transfer for snow/ice.

Remember...by the time you get to those roads...they are going to be polished ice.

---

Chris

Anyone use QA1 springs? They are significantly cheaper than Eibach $39 vs. $59, not more economical if they break though!

-Martin.

i used afco's in front and didn't have a problem

---

Chris

Do It Sidewayz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> personally. i would have though you are a little
> stiff in the front to begin with. I'd think a
> softer spring up front might let the car rotate a
> little better..i know i know, just mash the gas,
> but sometimes it is nice to turn the wheel and
> have it respond nicely.

Seemed to work the way it was for gravel. I'm sure some fine tuning might be in order once I have some more seat time.


> your predicted rates for the snow is about right
> i'd figure.

That's good to hear, but why do they sound about right?

> a word of caution....finding 14" springs ain't
> that easy up here. Bicknell does stock just
> about every variation of 12", but i don't think
> they stock 14"ers.

Agreed, I'll probably have to getthem form teh US, like most stuff...

> From my 7 years of Rubber to Ice racing
> experience, i can tell you that you definately do
> need weight transfer to get good grip. Espeically
> when you aren't running studs.
>
> My concern with going with stock suspension is
> bending them over jumps and so on. Apart from
> that, it's probably about the best in terms of
> weight transfer for snow/ice.

I ran stock type stuff for 3 or 4 years on Ontario Winter Rally (TSD) w eran on a lot of polished ice! The only complaint I had was that it bottomed out a lot, if it didn't do that it would have bene fine.

> Remember...by the time you get to those
> roads...they are going to be polished ice.

Yeah, i doubt I'll ever get to ue thes deep snow tires I bought... Ice tires are all ready mounted with tubes!


Thanks for the feedback...Martin.

Well maybe the rebuilt stuff from Bilstein and the repaired tube from me will arrive in time, maybe not, who can say?
But I looked at this weather report and see its really too cold to use the stuff anyway:

Currently

Observed at: Maniwaki Airport 10:00 PM EST Wednesday 31 January 2007

Temperature:
-20°C
Pressure / Tendency:
101.4 kPa / rising
Humidity:
81%
Dew Point:
-22.4°C

5 Day Forecast

Issued: 3.45 PM EST Wednesday 31 January 2007

Tonight:
A few clouds. Increasing cloudiness overnight with 40 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 20.
Thursday:
Cloudy with sunny periods and 40 percent chance of flurries. High minus 7.
Thursday night:
Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 9.
Friday:
Snow. High minus 3.
Saturday:
Sunny. Low minus 16. High minus 7.
Sunday:
A mix of sun and cloud with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 21. High minus 10.

Yesterday

High:
-14.0°C
Low:
-30.9°C

Martin, think about the cold, it's too cold for the stiff stuff, especially as you need the weight shift and need to feel it.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

"Saturday:
Sunny. Low minus 16. High minus 7."


This is all that matters... it's colder now than they were saying yesterday when I checked (-11 C for the low).

So what temperature is too low? You never did answer this when I asked a month ago!

It would appear that the fronts won't be here on time, but if they do show up I have one of my crew setup to pick them up and drive right up with them and we'll install them Friday night... maybe, or...

The alternate plan, which is what we are on right now, is NISMO stock style front struts with stock springs. I have another pair of stock struts as spares, in case we blow one or two.

In the rear I'm running the Bilstien's with softer springs, 120lb/in vs. 175 lb/in. On my test drive I wasn't impressed with the weight transfer and rear grip, but it was short and I was hoping that they'd warm up (yet I realize that they are valve too agressively for this really).

We'll run like this for the notes familiarization on Friday and see how it goes. If it sucks we have everything with us to convert to stock rears (which involves changing uprights too) including wanked out shocks which is all I have.

What else can we do except the best we can with what we've got?

-Martin.