Brainstorming and questions for the PV 544

I've managed to get the house undercontrol long enough for my mind to drift back to building a car. Sometime during the underpinning of the basement some sense got knocked into my stuborn Irish head (or so I think).

My current plan is to brace up the shell and cut out the rotten/half replaced floor and then charm my way into the circle track race shop around the corner to build a floor and frame section with a cage and then drop the shell back on. This will of course involve lots of measuring and CAD drawings, which shouldn't be too bad.

But since I don't know shit about rally suspension I thought I would ask you guys.

Just what should I run for front and rear suspension? Use a Volvo front subframe? Stick with A Arms but with a bigger shock and new mount? Convert to struts? Use a live rear axle with 4 link? Put in IRS? Just how much travel should I be looking for anyways?

I bought the 544 as a super cheap learn how to weld project.. but it's managed to charm me a fair bit. And if you're wondering why I'm considering it so seriously, I like the fact that 4 fenders bolt on and off (thinking easier maintenance and when I smash them up faster and easier replacement) There are about 20+ shells an hour drive from here. Hell if it actually works out I would probably consider reverting to 444 split front and rear glass for the ease and cheapness of replacement as well.

I've attached some photos of some other 544 builds I found.. some are obviously for road racing.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2007 03:00AM by hudson.

Got to quick with the post button

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

How obvious is it that it was pretty late/early when I wrote that.

Basically I'm asking how much suspension travel should I be looking for in a medium slow to medium fast rally car?

Once I know that then I can start thinking about what to do for suspension. Since all 4 fenders are removable track can get wider within reason with ease and then I'll just make up some fibreglass fenders that cover the wheels.

I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel here on suspension so if it's known to work well enough and cheap and plentiful then I can use that. I figure it will probably be just as much work to cut out the rear pan of say a 240 and put that in than it would be to just mock up a 4 link with say a 140 rear axle (got one in the basement and bearings on the shelf behind me).

Should I be looking for A arms with big beefy bolt on ball joints? Or use struts? Or break the PV front suspension first (I know the rear axle is crap, but don't know if the front is weak)?

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

I think for CARS rules your supposed to maintain the stock firewall and floor pan, except where it's necessray to remove for safety or allowed modifications. Or some similar type of wording...

I modified my floor pan to remove tehh uge hump for teh CAt so I could get teh seta down low enough to give me alittle headroom, and cut a huge mother hole for a fuel cell. I had no problems with this, but removing altogether and fabbing might be frowned upon... who knows.

-Martin.

Martin,

Good point I should probably get in touch with the person who makes these decisions before I get too far along this line of thinking.. I figured at the very least it would fall into Open. L'Estages AWD Tiburon floor pans can't be very original. I can leave the firewall alone.

I've got a bunch of other cars in better shape floor wise as well.. but they don't fit in my tiny garage as nicely and when I thought up constructing the floor and cage as one outside of the car and dropping the shell over it, it hit me that it would likely be a whole lot faster and easier.

Do you know who I should contact about such a question?

Thanks

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Martin, you were right here's the direct quote.

The original floor pan and firewall must remain and may be modified only to the extent necessary to accommodate allowed alternate components. Roof mounted cooling vents are allowed.

I'll have to send off an email.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Here's a lousy copy of Sweden's winningest PV in the early 90s, several times National Champion in rallycross:

Note suspension details


Can you read the spec of the motor?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey Andrew

You want to speak with Rob Metcalfe:

905-895-6275

or

<scrutineers@rallysport.on.ca>

Cheers, Ted

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Thanks Ted.

I sent an email last night. The number will probably prove handy though.

I hope it's ok to do your own fabricated floor pans.. I'd be fine if they say you can't turn a live axle car into IRS, that's definitely reasonable. But if they want to start up a classic car division with many cars in it, I'd imagine they're going to have to accept non original floors, especially around here!

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:

> I hope it's ok to do your own fabricated floor
> pans.. I'd be fine if they say you can't turn a
> live axle car into IRS, that's definitely
> reasonable. But if they want to start up a classic
> car division with many cars in it, I'd imagine
> they're going to have to accept non original
> floors, especially around here!

My gut feeling is that they'll have no issues with rust repairs in the "spirit" of the original floorpan -- it'd get sketchy if you hacked it all out and skinned it in aluminum like they do with road race and drag cars though.

AFAIK, they'd be cool with you swapping out the rear axle for an IRS setup and/or replacing the front clip with a more modern setup as well -- group 2/5 is pretty much wide open for modifications other than safety and displacement.

I haven't heard of any rumours of an 'official' CARS Historic class, I'm just building my Mini to group 2 rules and not worrying about the "period-ness" of it all.

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Ted Andkilde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFAIK, they'd be cool with you swapping out the
> rear axle for an IRS setup and/or replacing the
> front clip with a more modern setup as well --
> group 2/5 is pretty much wide open for
> modifications other than safety and displacement.
>
> I haven't heard of any rumours of an 'official'
> CARS Historic class, I'm just building my Mini to
> group 2 rules and not worrying about the
> "period-ness" of it all.
>
> Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly
> creative man -- Sir Alec

That's good to know. That puts the car back into the savable catagory.

About a classic class, the Ontario championship is working on starting one up. It's in the latest rule book from the Ontario website. I first heard this mentioned in a summer issue of classic motorsport.. seems cool, especially if things don't get anal aka expensive. If anything the sport needs more affordability rather than another class that you need to have money coming out of your socks to afford.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

John,

2.7 litres and 300 hp that makes power from 3600 to almost 8000 something rpm is what I got out of the engine stats, not bad at all! I won't need anything near that for the first while! I might do a trade for my 142 shell and a stock rebuilt B20 with an F head.. don't know what I think of that at the moment. I know I'll have more things to worry about than making more power for a while.

Looks like he is using the pv front subframe and has made new shock mounts on top and is using a 240 rack. Looks like a 240 rear axle he was running in the back, but he's again modified the mounts. Arn't the 240 axles basically the same as the 140s? I've got a 140 axle with mangled mounts in the basement I wonder if there is an easy and affordable rear axle mount solution.

If he's pounding the dirt with 300hp and has the PV front subframe that answers the question about if it's good enough. He must be using 1800, one off, or aftermarket spindles.

I wonder just how high the centre of gravity on a PV is. I know it's lower than it looks.

I'm still waiting to hear back about what kind of stuff I can do to the floor. Once I hear back on that and it's ok I'll start measuring and do up some cad drawings and then find out how much the chassis jig up at that shop will cost to use.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

JVL what are you doooin to me man.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Could someone with a stripped XR4TI handy measure:

How wide is the floor pan from rocker to rocker?

From firewall to center of rear wheels?

Thanks

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish