Reinforcing VW control arms/subframe

Quote
Robert Culbertson
Does anyone have the diameter dimensions for the mk2/mk3 stub axle? I'm wondering if a custom turned axle to fit the mk4 hub could be persuaded onto the mk2/3 stub axle. I picked up a set of mk4 hubs, axles, and disks today. I can make them fit with some machined adapter plates, but that might be a little pricey for people without a mill/cnc at their disposal.

You got these?


With those horrible antler caliper mountings?? (erp! eeeewww I think I threw up a bit)

As for fitment---what is the diameter of the ID of the socket where the strut pokes in? I may already have what you need to do the install
What strut tube lowers you have?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Nah mang, wrong end of the car! I'm speakin about the rear, the end that doesn't get enough attention.

For the fronts, I already have the mk3 uprights/knockles with the bigger brakes.
I want to change the rear. When I wear out my rotors I don't want to have to spend an hour+ machining them to fit studs. I want to devise a system of parts that will allow me to run a seperate rotor and hub in the rear. People have been trying to get the mk4 sealed bearing hubs into mk2/3 and you can if you order Polo parts from Urope, or if you make some fancy dancy cnc spacer (I'm okay with that). But what I want to do is make a larger consitstent dia axle that wil slide/press onto the older axle. This may not even be possible. But lathe time will be way less than CNC mill time for these parts.

For the fronts I have even worse ideas. I got bad ideas in my head. It turns out that the Audi 90 front outer CV will slide on ze VW shaft. BUT! The splines don't match the hub. BUT, the 4X108 Audi hubs can be turned down the ~2mm where it slides in the bearing and redrilled for everyones favorite 4X100 bolt pattern. Also, this can be done with Audi A4 front hubs as well. The A4 and Passat may also work as well.
This is all sparked by my hatred for the stupid triple square crap that VW uses on the inner CVs and my obliterating outer joints at a stupid rate. I ordered up some M8 ferry bolts for the inners, so that problem is fixed.

The outer CV I COULD upgrade to VR6, and do some fancy machine work. OR I could do some fancy machine work and use a giany bolt to hold my CV in (audi style, like VWMS stuff) so CV changes would be a snap. I have no experience with Audi CVs, but I assume they may be slightly stronger than the VW thangs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2013 05:35PM by Robert Culbertson.

For the front boingers, which I think is what you're asking about John, I have some bilstein HDs with sleeves and stuff. The upper strut mounts are being switched to subi stuff that I got from William. This is all happening when I pull the engine and trans for rebuild time. YAY!

Quote
Robert Culbertson
For the front boingers, which I think is what you're asking about John, I have some bilstein HDs with sleeves and stuff. The upper strut mounts are being switched to subi stuff that I got from William. This is all happening when I pull the engine and trans for rebuild time. YAY!

WHICH Bilstein HDs? They usually come way short, like 160mm travel which is around stock travel. I'm packing a set right now over on the table...
The insert body is long enough for travel at 190, the tube is extra long and the pin is made to be longer..

On these VW units the top pin was also annoying ling or the shoulder for the bearing long, so I cut the shoulder to 20mm diameter x 1/2" high,, the above it left a hunk of pin at 15mm OD for the 15mm ID bearings in so many Japanese bearings..
I'll post piccies as soon as I can upload them..

This was done to try and keep the overall length not tooooo long so more travel doesn't raise the front needlessly..

What does the bottom of the tube look like on what you have?...that socket in and pinch is exactly what Xratty knuckles look like and its a biitch cause of th inevitable tire to spring rubbing..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not the socket and a pinch. Two ears and two bolts, like subies and older VW. The inserts are unknown, but the clown I bought the car from said they were revalved by Bilstein. I'd like to see these piccies of how you machined the pins.

Quote
Robert Culbertson
Not the socket and a pinch. Two ears and two bolts, like subies and older VW. The inserts are unknown, but the clown I bought the car from said they were revalved by Bilstein. I'd like to see these piccies of how you machined the pins.

Well I keep asking what the diameter in the new clampie knuckle is.
I think its spot on at 50mm but go measure da fawkin thang .

Here's the struts that began life as off the shelf, fixed sea Bilsteins for a Golf II



Ears for Golf chopped off, ears for Rabbit modded by 020 but for you new knuckles, you might find---(if you ever measure the junk---didya get out there and do it yet? Whatcher waiting for?) that the lower body slips in or will slip in with a light cut. Then all you do is zap on some stop rings..

This way, if you're going to have clampie type is nicer cause the OAL for a given travel can be less by the width of the calmpie part since things pass thru instead of like 2wd Xratties and Cossies and old Honda and Subies which had a 44-45mm hole and a fitment that welds to the tube and the fitment gets pinched and the strut is ALL above the knuckle...


Here's the top ofg the off the shelf things again modded to save length and mount a decent bearing:

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

(3 minutes later) well didya measure things yet?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, I have the OLDER VW rabbit/golf style of front struts. They look like the ones you modded. When I weld in the subi top mounts I will call you about the front boingers. Once again I DO NOT HAVE THE NEWER ONES (ie, Focus style, and some Audi) like





I want to change the REAR hubs to later style hubs with sealed bearings and disks that ARE SEPERATE from the hub like most normal things.

uh duh.. need glasses.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ne'ermind me: Ima just arrest myslef for Threadjacking.

Sorry 'bout dat, alla you Vee-Dubbers. Don't worry - I threw the Book at me.

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2013 06:36AM by Creech.

I did some quick reasearch on bearing IDs and the mk4 is 1.181in ID and the mk2/3 is 29mm/1.142. So the wall thickness of a machined sleeve on the bigger diameter would be about 0.020in. I just have to get the shoulders to the right location to align the rotors.
This could actually work.
Though it might just be easier to make some adapters that space each wheel out about 1/2in. Bolt on and go.
If I make a few sets of adapters to place the mk4 stub axle onto a mk2 beam, would anyone be interested in purchasing a set or two?

Quote
john vanlandingham
You got these?


With those horrible antler caliper mountings?? (erp! eeeewww I think I threw up a bit)

As for fitment---what is the diameter of the ID of the socket where the strut pokes in? I may already have what you need to do the install
What strut tube lowers you have?

Just for info that pic shows the integral caliper carrier type of hub assembly which is fitted to the basic lower capacity models that use 256mm vented discs. There are different hub assemblies fitted to the higher spec vehicles that utilise a separate bolt on caliper carrier.
I am also pretty sure the strut id is larger on these higher spec models such as the GTI and TDI models so beware if thinking the dimension of strut socket from the above hub will work with the other "better" type.
Also the bottom balljoint on these type of mk4 hubs is a taper pin and not a parallel 17 or 19mm pin with a clamp bolt.

EDIT: Oh, and they are some fine looking VW struts there. The std road going "HD" inverted strut kits seem to have about 100mm travel before the bump stop comes into play.....

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2013 07:02AM by danster.

Quote
Robert Culbertson
I did some quick reasearch on bearing IDs and the mk4 is 1.181in ID and the mk2/3 is 29mm/1.142. So the wall thickness of a machined sleeve on the bigger diameter would be about 0.020in. I just have to get the shoulders to the right location to align the rotors.
This could actually work.
Though it might just be easier to make some adapters that space each wheel out about 1/2in. Bolt on and go.
If I make a few sets of adapters to place the mk4 stub axle onto a mk2 beam, would anyone be interested in purchasing a set or two?

How are you going to get adequate torque to tighten the rear mk4 hub / wheel bearing assembly with it's sealed bearing, when the fine thread on the mk2 stub is only designed for preloading the taper roller bearings?

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Quote
danster

Quote
Robert Culbertson
I did some quick reasearch on bearing IDs and the mk4 is 1.181in ID and the mk2/3 is 29mm/1.142. So the wall thickness of a machined sleeve on the bigger diameter would be about 0.020in. I just have to get the shoulders to the right location to align the rotors.
This could actually work.
Though it might just be easier to make some adapters that space each wheel out about 1/2in. Bolt on and go.
If I make a few sets of adapters to place the mk4 stub axle onto a mk2 beam, would anyone be interested in purchasing a set or two?

How are you going to get adequate torque to tighten the rear mk4 hub / wheel bearing assembly with it's sealed bearing, when the fine thread on the mk2 stub is only designed for preloading the taper roller bearings?

As I do more and more thinking about this, machining and axle to slide over the mk2 axle is loking less and less appealing. The thread pitch is defferent, but the preload that can be applied with that size of thread should be suffice. I was able to loosen the mk4 nuts with a breaker bar, so I figured the torquw was ~80-100 Nm. Major downsize is it uses a custom part that could be damaged/bent. Without a spare setup you would be hosed.
Designing and machining a bolt on plate with caliper brackets is looking like a better and easier option. The downside is it will widen the thrack of the car at least 5/8in per side. This may be negligable, I don't know. You could keep the balance by going to wider front control arms though.

Not to derail this fine thread, but Robert, maybe you should just keep it simple for now and come out and play with the car as-is. I've seen you at a bunch of events, and you seem like a sensible sort. Lots of people get by with just the stock rear end, and it's really only if you're pushing the car (or are a particularly wild driver) that these sorts of upgrades are needed.

Not trying to be a negative nabob here - I'm all for continued investigations on this. It's just that I see soooo many people getting wrapped up in modding cars and never actually getting out on stage that it gets kind of depressing.

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Self-righteous douche canoe