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Differential lingo

Posted by NoCoast 
NoCoast
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Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 05:53PM
What the fuck is the stupid percentage number I see all the time?
I upgraded my diff from a 20% to 60%. WTF does that mean?



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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 05:59PM
Based on protracted analysis of the figures you gave it looks like you just got a 40% upgrade.

What diff type are you referring to?



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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 06:09PM
Quote
danster
Based on protracted analysis of the figures you gave it looks like you just got a 40% upgrade.

What diff type are you referring to?


200% upgrade



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mekilljoydammit
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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 06:35PM
Sometimes, people with aftermarket diffs are talking in terms of deactivating some of the plates because the sucker can lock too hard for their circumstances; two inner plates then two outer plates next to each other instead of inner/outer/inner/outer for example. Dunno if that's relevant in rally where some people are going to spools but there it is.

Other times, people are dumb.
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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 06:44PM
Weld it! 100%

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Aaron Luptak
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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 06:55PM
You should totally get a stage 2 diff. way better than any of that percentage garbage.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 09:11PM
Stage 3 or go home.



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NoCoast
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Re: Differential lingo
March 20, 2013 10:41PM
I guess I shoulda quoted the % upgrade part. I have two bins full of shit.

BUT, NEWS FLASH!!! As of today I will offer a 75% upgrade to ANY and ALL drivers with an open diff! Just send me a message and $5 and I will send you the secret.

But really, WTF are they talking about?



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 12:03AM
maximum speed differential side to side..
A good modern clutch palte diff since early 90s may be a "90% lockup" never allowing more than 10% speed difference side to side. Old school early 70s thing might be ---(ZF uses usually will see a big S on the case and an S in the ID tag, that's Krautski talk for ''sperr" like in:) 25% and moving the plates to proper stack (rather than stacking the 2 of the same thing on top--making a fat driven and a fat driving per side) would bump that to 40%....or max 60% speed difference...


As you see it's a German thing, so naturally you should look there for ''einlichtung"

Quote

Sperrwert und Charakteristik

Ein normales Differential ohne Sperrwirkung wird auch als offenes Differential bezeichnet. Idealerweise können die beiden Räder frei drehen, die Reibungsverluste im offenen Differential wären dann 0 (praktisch gesehen verhalten sich auch offene Differentiale wie drehmomentfühlende Sperren mit geringem Sperrwert). Bei einem Sperrdifferential versucht man, den Wirkungsgrad des offenen Differentials zu verschlechtern.

Die Charakteristik einer Sperre wird über den Sperrwert (in %) und bei drehmomentfühlenden Sperrdifferentialen auch über das Drehmomentverhältnis ('Torque Bias Ratio', TBR) bestimmt. Konstant ist der Sperrwert bzw. das TBR nur bei reinen drehmomentfühlenden Differentialen. Dazu betrachtet man die Drehmomente, die auf das linke und das rechte Rad übertragen werden. Beim offenen Differential kann das Drehmoment rechts (MR) nicht anders sein als das Drehmoment (ML) beim linken Rad, im Idealfall des reibungsfreien, offenen Differentials ist der Sperrwert = 0 % und das TBR = 1. Bei drehmomentfühlenden Ausgleichsgetrieben mit symmetrischer (50:50) Drehmomentaufteilung ist das TBR gleich dem Kehrwert des Standgetriebe-Wirkungsgrades. Beispielsweise weist ein Ausgleichsgetriebe mit einem Wirkungsgrad von 50 % ein TBR von 2,0 auf.

Die allgemeinen Formeln für symmetrische Differentiale lauten:

S = \frac {|M_L-M_R|}{(M_L+M_R)} [Sperrwert, Wertebereich zwischen 0\,\%\ldots 100\,\%]

TBR = \frac{\text{max}(M_L, M_R)}{\text{min}(M_L, M_R)} [Torque Bias Ratio, Wertebereich zwischen 1\ldots\infin]

Formeln zur Umrechnung zwischen beiden Werten:

S = \frac{TBR - 1}{TBR + 1}, \qquad TBR = \frac{1 + S}{1 - S}

Sperrwert bzw. TBR sind nur bei drehmomentfühlenden Sperren und bei Festwertsperren konstant.

English is just a variant of the North-western branch of German so this should be easy for you.



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 12:44AM
Screw %. We need torque bias ratio bro!
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 10:19AM
Quote
NoCoast
But really, WTF are they talking about?

What type of diff? A standard plate diff, a plate diff with ramps, an ATB diff, a viscous diff, ... etc. All of them will have different ways of tweaking.
If the % is just marketing jargon it could mean anything. eg. X% increase in preload, X% increase in surface area of plates, X% decrease in ramp angles giving more bite or compressive load on the plates.

What parts did the kit include? Some pics to compare the upgraded parts against the standard bits would help.



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NoCoast
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 02:25PM
Man, tough crowd in here today...
1. Not from anything I'm looking at buying, just see it on occasion, for example, Matt Bradenenenburg or whatever his name is, on his BMW rally car ran at 100AW, he said, we upgraded with a 60% diff. See if on occasion on other shit where they talk about percentages on the diff...

2. I do not care about nor look at anything other than clutch pack style differentials.

So how can the allowed speed difference be controlled? Friction material, number of plates, and installing discs backwards?

I'm pretty certain this is one of those wanky wanky pavement pounding things where people can be all like, "well based on this track I should have at maximum a 40% speed difference on the tightest corner so I want a 40% diff from _______, here's $2000 and thanks."



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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 02:56PM
This is why it is good to discuss and learn as much as we can from one another to make sure nobody has a few too many beers of an evening and accidentally purchases the wrong thing for their particular application.
If I woke up after a heavy night on the ales and found I had ordered this 80% upgrade for a VW 020 box that was going to miraculously transform my car and make me a Seb Loeb beating master behind the wheel, I think I would hang my head in shame and embarrasment when the hangover kicked in and the cold feeling of reality came back to my sober mind.





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john vanlandingham
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 03:33PM
Quote
danster
This is why it is good to discuss and learn as much as we can from one another to make sure nobody has a few too many beers of an evening and accidentally purchases the wrong thing for their particular application.
If I woke up after a heavy night on the ales and found I had ordered this 80% upgrade for a VW 020 box that was going to miraculously transform my car and make me a Seb Loeb beating master behind the wheel, I think I would hang my head in shame and embarrasment when the hangover kicked in and the cold feeling of reality came back to my sober mind.


rotsa ruck, round eye...drinking smiley



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Differential lingo
March 21, 2013 04:12PM
Quote
NoCoast
Man, tough crowd in here today...
1. Not from anything I'm looking at buying, just see it on occasion, for example, Matt Bradenenenburg or whatever his name is, on his BMW rally car ran at 100AW, he said, we upgraded with a 60% diff. See if on occasion on other shit where they talk about percentages on the diff...

2. I do not care about nor look at anything other than clutch pack style differentials.

So how can the allowed speed difference be controlled? Friction material, number of plates, and installing discs backwards?

I'm pretty certain this is one of those wanky wanky pavement pounding things where people can be all like, "well based on this track I should have at maximum a 40% speed difference on the tightest corner so I want a 40% diff from _______, here's $2000 and thanks."

The percentage is relative to wheels speed as John mentioned (I htink, and from what little you can actually find on teh topic).
This can be adjusted by shimming the plates and allowing more initial preload to the clutch pack. Alternating disk position will also alter the amount of torque the diff can allow side to side.
Also, I'm not sure how teh spider gears preload the clutch pack, but input torque from the drive shaft can also have an impact on the amount of lock-up the dif can provide.
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