VW MK2 GTI suspension upgrade/questions

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ericlangbein
It may appear that the outer diameter of the flange that's supposed to seat to the wheel bearing never got there (up tight to the inner race of the wheel bearing). That part is supposed to bear any bending load (when torque is being applied and wheel is turned) while the splines are really only designed to bear radial or driving/accelerating load. If the wheel bearing is too thin (worn out? improper part or manufacturer tolerance?) or the hub is longer than its supposed to be (are the spine ends interfering before the axle nut draws the CV flange up to the bearing surface?) I could see this happening.

Just throwing some ideas out there- I don't have any experience with this particular problem.

I've been wondering that too - that or something with the radius where the spline goes to the "cup".
But it's all guessing I must say...

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Brgrds
Brian

Quote
wildert

Quote
ericlangbein
It may appear that the outer diameter of the flange that's supposed to seat to the wheel bearing never got there (up tight to the inner race of the wheel bearing). That part is supposed to bear any bending load (when torque is being applied and wheel is turned) while the splines are really only designed to bear radial or driving/accelerating load. If the wheel bearing is too thin (worn out? improper part or manufacturer tolerance?) or the hub is longer than its supposed to be (are the spine ends interfering before the axle nut draws the CV flange up to the bearing surface?) I could see this happening.

Just throwing some ideas out there- I don't have any experience with this particular problem.

I've been wondering that too - that or something with the radius where the spline goes to the "cup".
But it's all guessing I must say...

OK old geezer time. Used to the CV was pressed into the beaing and the hub/flange/"nabet" for Brian was splined on and being a press fit it was always tight TIGHT... See the Mighty Saab 96, or even Saab 99 up to the 1981 model year when Saab went to what we'll just call "the VW way"---but really everybody..

Now the flange has an extended boss and that gets pressed into the bearing and the ID is splined and the CV just slides in....

Before one press fit interface. ID of bearing is a ground finish and accurate to the 10/1000, the OD of the CV was ground finish and accurate to the Nth degree, good fit, no problems even with much more powerz than these warmed up Golves..

Now there's a broached ID of hub, a splined OD with a sliding fit, and the OD/ID interface..

We know that an slop at all leads to big spikes...hammering..
See You Tube for "One Inch Punch"---Bruce Lee punching a guy from 1", a BIG guy who falls on his ass...
Now if Bruce--weighing maybe 145lbs---had his fist already against the guy, he could only push andf the guy wouldn't be bothered, but one inch gap and BANG!

That is very likely a major part of what's happening here: and maybe worse with what we call "tolerance stack up.."

I know Ford Motorsport sold for the Sierra what they called "selected" hubs and CV..
Selected...for what? I think I know: being high end of the tolerance range..
They also said to "life" the hubs to 500km... and there was a suggestion on lifeing the uprights. And it is the same basic stuff--same suppliers

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John you might be interested to know that Volvo has enough slop problems with their CV splines that they sell a special magic goop (smells like green Loctite) to put in the splines to keep them from clunking all the time!

Of course part of the problem is that instead of using an M16 or M18 bolt torqued to "break your ratchet, plus 180 degrees" like VW/Audi, they just have an M12 torqued to 35ft-lb...

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Pete
John you might be interested to know that Volvo has enough slop problems with their CV splines that they sell a special magic goop (smells like green Loctite) to put in the splines to keep them from clunking all the time!

Of course part of the problem is that instead of using an M16 or M18 bolt torqued to "break your ratchet, plus 180 degrees" like VW/Audi, they just have an M12 torqued to 35ft-lb...

Smooooochies Pete, good info..

All you VW hose-wads! I think this is the major part of the snapping the splined bit off type failure..Ain't bruce Lee One Inch Punch, but just a rattly fit is bad--eventually.

---and as i said---that's the one which I think is disaster

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Pretty sure the 5 stud setups found on mk3 Golf GTI and VR6 vehicles come with the splines "glued" into the drive flange with some kind of product from the factory. Always found you need a substantial puller to remove the outer CV from the drive flange if the vehicle has never had these parts separated previously. If this is the case there is no way the CV will push or knock out of the flange like it does on the 4 stud types.

There are so many factors in how CVs break to consider. EG. Had the CV been run on the other side previously and when it changed side it gave up. Are the aftermarket ones made of decent quality metal. The engine moving around would generally cause a failure by either pulling the shaft out of the outer CV, or cause the inner CV to contact the gearbox output drive flange and fail. Does the clutch have a sprung or solid friction disc, etc
And of course there is the possibilty that they are just not up to the job as they were originally designed for a small shopping car, not a competition vehicle subject to arduous use.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

We have broken one axle just like that and it was a brand new unit from Raxles. Probably was over-torqued to like 250# rather than 180# or whatever they are supposed to be at. Failed in the service area thankfully.

Sloppy motor mounts definitely cause problems in the VWs. If you are breaking the cage that holds the balls, your motor mounts are almost certainly the cause. If you are shearing axles --- power or driveline shock may be to blame. if the outer CVs are failing, you may be mashing the gas at full lock while hitting a bump/rock/ditch.....Why were you at full lock anyway?

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Eddie Fiorelli had a stub shaft failure leading to crash at Mendocino this weekend.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
Josh Wimpey
Why were you at full lock anyway?

Because Spectators

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Runamuck Rally

Quote
Josh Wimpey
Why were you at full lock anyway?

In my case it was a novice driver, a peloquin kit, re-manufactured axles, and a typical Minnesota grass-o-cross course at the time (way too many turns on a very very small lot).



Same thing happened on two different venues. They've made some improvements to the courses since then but I've found better things to do with my time.

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Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2013 01:51PM by DG_Rally.

So this 8mm spacer that has been mentioned, where does it go? Between the rack assembly and the subframe or somewhere inside the rack assembly itself?

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Runamuck Rally

Quote
Towona
So this 8mm spacer that has been mentioned, where does it go? Between the rack assembly and the subframe or somewhere inside the rack assembly itself?

On the rack bar behind the inner socket assembly.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thx John. My knowledge of the inner working of steering racks is quite limited, so please bear with me as I am not familiar with the terminology.

I have what I think is a ZF rack (it has the waffle pattern on the housing), so assuming this diagram is correct for my rack, where does the spacer (or is it 2 spacers?) go?

Do you mean where the inner tie rod (piece #1) threads into the rack bar (piece #9)? I'm visualizing a cylindrical 8mm spacer that fits over the threads of the inner tie rod, preventing them from being threaded in all the way, which effectively pushes the tie rods outboard by 8mm each?

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Runamuck Rally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2013 10:31PM by Towona.

I'm not sure about where to get the 8mm spacer, but you can use a split collar from the hardware store. It clamps over the rack itself, right next to the inner tie-rod. The collar bottoms the rack first instead of the inner tie-rod. This just reduces your steering lock so the CVs have less angle in them.

Here ya go: Homedepoooo.com

Quote
Robert Culbertson
I'm not sure about where to get the 8mm spacer, but you can use a split collar from the hardware store. It clamps over the rack itself, right next to the inner tie-rod. The collar bottoms the rack first instead of the inner tie-rod. This just reduces your steering lock so the CVs have less angle in them.

Here ya go: Homedepoooo.com

$26!!!

Oi ! OI! OI!

Somebody get me a fawking VW rack for a few minutes!

You guys spend $26 bucks for something that has 1.25 in materials!

No wonder guys don't but cool gearsets and bitchin shit like that, pissing away 10-20 times what shit should cost.
In MY design I want to make them like a C in a little boingier nylon-ish material so you rack the thing ober, pull back the boot and SNAP the C onto "9" in the drawing..the spacer will bottom in the housing "26" where before "1" bottomed


Oh. wait.nevermind. I'm tired I wasn't thinking. I've been called all sorts of shit altely because I think people don't have scads of money to throw away for shit.... but it is clear the organsiers and Federation want rich people..

Nevermind.. I won't make the damn things... Pay $26/3 pack

I'll make some for Fiestas instead, then I'll be fabulously wealthy!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Image mainly for clarity. There's no way I'd pay that much!
Have another cup-o-tea and think of the $$$ rolling out of the Fiestas as they drive by.