Suspension setup

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johnhuebbe

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john vanlandingham

seen your car go, it LOOKS good but bigger question is are you happy?

What's it doing?
What are you hoping to do?

Happy, yes.

With the rear at 35%, sometimes it feels too loose or wollowie in turns. Like it needs to be a bit lower.

I'm just trying to get an idea of how the car should be properly setup. Just make sure I'm not running too high/low. Seems like it is set in the ball park of what everyone else says.

Loose and maybe wallowy...

You know the MOTOR is hanging off the back of the car a fairly long way dotcha?

And if you ever played darts you know its the heavy end which wants to NATURALLY lead...er dontcha?

Could very well be what you're feeling is
completely normal and unavoidable for a narrow, short, tall car with some major weight hung way behind the backwheel centerline..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Robert Culbertson
No bars on the car. The rear is a trailing axle, so it's already pretty stiff. It still has a bit of understeer on turn in that I would like to get rid of. I have thought about swapping springs front to back to stiffen up the rear. The weight biasis totally jacked on these cars. 66% front is a little excessive. My car needs a diet.

More low-speed compression in the rear or a smidgeon of rear toe-out?

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john vanlandingham
Loose and maybe wallowy...

You know the MOTOR is hanging off the back of the car a fairly long way dotcha?

Well aware of that

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john vanlandingham
And if you ever played darts you know its the heavy end which wants to NATURALLY lead...er dontcha?

Makes for a fun time down a gravel road... until the rear end swaps with the front.

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john vanlandingham
Could very well be what you're feeling is
completely normal and unavoidable for a narrow, short, tall car with some major weight hung way behind the backwheel centerline..

Maybe I'm just expecting too much out of it, or I need to go to a slightly stiffer torsion bar to help with bottoming out (if i want to lower the car a bit more)

I know the car isn't the best, just trying to get the most out of it. If I wanted a car that could win outright, I would have picked a Blue Subaru

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Iowa999
More low-speed compression in the rear or a smidgeon of rear toe-out?

All good ideas. The shocks are not externally adjustable, though I have thought about converting them with the off the shelf kits/parts that Bilstein offers.
Toeing the rear out is a masive pain. There are shims that go under the stub axles to adjust toe. I could fabricate up a toe stabilizer bar that connects from the middle of the beam to each stub axle. Then I could bend the beam to adjust toe with a large toe link. But then what about on the rally car? There's a fuel tank and a skid plate in the way? Oh what to do!

Back to the VW bug: If the rear is all bouncy, try some stiffer rear shocks maybe? Maybe something with some adjustments? I'm not sure what's available for sway bars, but I can only assume they will be mucho dinero if they are available.
I vaguely recall the rear shocks on air-cooled VW were eyes mounts on both ends. Fox makes a few cheap ajdustable shocks for the offroad crowd that might bolt in. You can also buy the offroad steel bodied Bilsteins and convert those to external reseviors and adjusters! All you need is someone with a TIG welder and an evening.

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Robert Culbertson
Back to the VW bug: If the rear is all bouncy, try some stiffer rear shocks maybe?

Not bouncy, just feels loose/tall in the rear when the suspension is set at 35% sag. If I index the rear torsion bar a degree or two less, to set the car lower, it feels better but then I can bottom out more.

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Robert Culbertson
Maybe something with some adjustments?

I currently run the Bilstein 7100 series shocks. Non adjustable
http://www.eshocks.com/bil_ORvh.asp?Series_Index=q3&Length_Index=6q6&Manf=All&SubChar=q

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Robert Culbertson
I'm not sure what's available for sway bars, but I can only assume they will be mucho dinero if they are available.
I vaguely recall the rear shocks on air-cooled VW were eyes mounts on both ends. Fox makes a few cheap ajdustable shocks for the offroad crowd that might bolt in. You can also buy the offroad steel bodied Bilsteins and convert those to external reseviors and adjusters! All you need is someone with a TIG welder and an evening.

I don't run a rear sway bar. come to think of it, I don't see how I could, with the transmission and engine skid plates, unless I fab'd something up special.

Sorry, I meant torsion bars not sway bars......
But you could do a sway bar with a universal-ish circle track one mounted up high with some longer end links.

fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=VuHBUc7ZCMnjigKYpYHQDg&biw=2144&bih=1224&sei=WOHBUdjAEab9iQLNl4HQCQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=Ik67MR-N4stlOM%3A%3BVuSooTgaQAKHXM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.1speedway.com%252FImages%252F613-5assm200.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.1speedway.com%252FSwaybars.htm%3B409%3B200" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" >pictarz!

With the 7100 you just need a new resevior with the adjusters and you're good to go. Just looked for the reseviors and I can no longer find them. The FOX 2.0 gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. foxshox.com

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johnhuebbe

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john vanlandingham
Loose and maybe wallowy...

You know the MOTOR is hanging off the back of the car a fairly long way dotcha?

Well aware of that

Quote
john vanlandingham
And if you ever played darts you know its the heavy end which wants to NATURALLY lead...er dontcha?

Makes for a fun time down a gravel road... until the rear end swaps with the front.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Could very well be what you're feeling is
completely normal and unavoidable for a narrow, short, tall car with some major weight hung way behind the backwheel centerline..

Maybe I'm just expecting too much out of it, or I need to go to a slightly stiffer torsion bar to help with bottoming out (if i want to lower the car a bit more)

I know the car isn't the best, just trying to get the most out of it. If I wanted a car that could win outright, I would have picked a Blue Subaru

When weltweit there is about a 30:1 ratio of Misterbitchis>
When the joke going around in 2000 at the Rally GB was "How'dya beat a £140,000 Subie Group N car?"

"Easy...buy a £28,000 Evo..."

Oh wait! I seeee what you did there...you go for the one with the barely revised VW motor..!!! Clever Trevor!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Robert Culbertson

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Iowa999

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Robert Culbertson
My golf runs 450 lb/in F and 350 lb/in rear for circuit racing. I have 225lb/in F and 175 lb/in R for gravel. So it's basically halved.

Sway bars?

No bars on the car. The rear is a trailing axle, so it's already pretty stiff. It still has a bit of understeer on turn in that I would like to get rid of. I have thought about swapping springs front to back to stiffen up the rear. The weight biasis totally jacked on these cars. 66% front is a little excessive. My car needs a diet.

Put 2 bodies in car, don't wry total weight, just look at F/R bias once you do..
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

As for a little understeer: attack harder, back end will swing out..asfalt oder schotter.. If it doesn't, attack harder. It will when you drive right_{---unless of course you have some bizarre weird auto-x ex-spurt derived shit done to the poor thing.Then all bets are off}

And separately, you haint responded to the news your light , low powered car is significantly heavier sprung that a much more heavy car with 3 times the power and twice the grip..

That's what I's calls "an anomoly" son...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

What if he happens to like great horrid green festering donkey dongs?

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john vanlandingham
And separately, you haint responded to the news your light , low powered car is significantly heavier sprung that a much more heavy car with 3 times the power and twice the grip..

That's what I's calls "an anomoly" son...

I know that the car is probably over sprung. But, the larger car with the lighter springs is running on ovals I bet. I have a friend that works with a big name NASCAR team. They run them down onto the bump rubbers almost the entire time. The speeds are so high that they only care about how the car handles at top speed, and they want the aero advantage from the car being lower. They roll the car through tech at an approved height, then low and behold, at 150+mph that same car is scrapping the ground! It's cheating I tell you!

I know that my car is probably over sprung, but after a race I check the struts and shocks to see how much travel I'm using. I'm using all of the travel. I agree that the car may be better with softer springs, but the tires are already big and bouncy. When I set the car up I asked numerous fast guys what rates they ran for the same car. They all were in the same ball park rate wise. When I ordered my coil-over kit, it came with only one rate, and that was the same that multiple people recommended. I'm not saying that it's the best, or even right, but it is working and it is fast.

Yeah, but what sort of shock valving are the other guys (with the same car and similar spring-rates) using?

You think we have money! Ha, we're all in clapped out VWs! Everyone seems to be running Bilstein Sports or Koni with a coil-sleeve setup. A few guys run the really nice fully adjustable stuff but it's hard to compare lap times. Too many variables there (drivers, brakes, knowledge of the track,etc).
Case in point. I can set lap times at Oregon Raceway Park at 2:15 in the dry (first time out there). Our fastest driver who is one of the driving instructors out there was 2:08 with two blown front wheel bearings and therefore no front brakes. He set FTOD.

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Robert Culbertson

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john vanlandingham
And separately, you haint responded to the news your light , low powered car is significantly heavier sprung that a much more heavy car with 3 times the power and twice the grip..

That's what I's calls "an anomoly" son...

I know that the car is probably over sprung. But, the larger car with the lighter springs is running on ovals I bet. I have a friend that works with a big name NASCAR team. They run them down onto the bump rubbers almost the entire time. The speeds are so high that they only care about how the car handles at top speed, and they want the aero advantage from the car being lower. They roll the car through tech at an approved height, then low and behold, at 150+mph that same car is scrapping the ground! It's cheating I tell you!

I know that my car is probably over sprung, but after a race I check the struts and shocks to see how much travel I'm using. I'm using all of the travel. I agree that the car may be better with softer springs, but the tires are already big and bouncy. When I set the car up I asked numerous fast guys what rates they ran for the same car. They all were in the same ball park rate wise. When I ordered my coil-over kit, it came with only one rate, and that was the same that multiple people recommended. I'm not saying that it's the best, or even right, but it is working and it is fast.

I was referring to stuff I know: Escort Cosworth.
They don't do ovals, they do tarmac stages.
Circle track has a lotta really weird needs and is not very transferable to other uses. Tarmac rally is more enlightening for a glimpse of what be a good starting point to think about for track use---but way too stiff for road use...

As for what "a lotta guys say" there is the old effect of "the blind leading the blind", and that operates very clearly in localities or isolated groups....
personally I say that explains the popularity of both Golves and Blue Subies in USA both of which are anomalies looked at world wide...There are lots of them not from any inherent advanatages but because 'everybody says so" as much as anything else..(not saying they bad--the Lego-ability of VW and Subie is a huge attraction and the little watercooled buggers are surprisingly durable considering how tiny everything is--just wish trans parts weren't so gawddam expensive)

You see that when you have guys who have never laid a wrench to one repeat stuff like "They're built like a tank" (Wha!!!!! ), never having looked at one part. Xrattie-fan-boys say that about Xratties "They have a really stiff shell" (wha!!!??? )


But as for rates, I really belive that there is a social function operative, by that I mean typical guy proxy-dong-length-comparison. We know as you REALLY go faster and driver harder, you will need stiffer springs---so guys one up each other and guys being guys if Fred says he uses 275 then Clyde has to one up him and say he's using 300 and Ryan has to one up him and say he "needs" 350 and so it goes... just like fan-bois and turbochargers---bigger is BIGGER.

At some point I don't believe guy are getting any compliance except bodyshell torsional twist---particularly since the imbeciles writing rules for the huge majority of the billions of classes over the decade are so stupid that they don't allow attaching cages to shells or any stitch welding to make for a better stiffer bodyshell/cage structure (which only costs time basically---and in the long run is better all round).
Know what I mean? After a certain rate a little weenie power car cannot do any more to move the suspension from generated force, so any more is just going to twist the flimsy shells---and everything modern just about is relatively flexy till the 00ies...and now newer things are back to lighter build cause occupant protection is covered by airbags, so no need to make the car stiff--more important worldwide is total weight for better km/L fuel consumption.

You seen the set up sheets for the various Fords hosted here?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have looked at the setup sheets, they have been super helpful for me at times. I wish they were a sticky or something, it takes me forever to find them.
The golf is super heavy for what it is. The total weight is 2300 with one driver. 66% front. That's in the same weight catagory as the cars you mentioned, more or less. The rear being so stiff is to get the outside tire to over saturate (slide) and get the car to turn (read 66% F weight). Yes you can drive the car in anger, and I can for a few corners that I am comfortable with. Right now I lack the seat time/skill to attack every corner with anger.
My car conveniently falls into a very grey area in between classes. So most of my racing is kept withing Chumpcar style endurance races. I prefer the Rat Race series at ORP ($1000 for a weekend for an entire team:enrty, tires, fuel, transportation)
It also is the halfway rally car. So it has some seam welding, over built (for road use) cage, reinforced subframe. We just swap suspension and skip plates to go play in the dirt.

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Robert Culbertson
I have looked at the setup sheets, they have been super helpful for me at times. I wish they were a sticky or something, it takes me forever to find them.
The golf is super heavy for what it is. The total weight is 2300 with one driver. 66% front. That's in the same weight catagory as the cars you mentioned, more or less. The rear being so stiff is to get the outside tire to over saturate (slide) and get the car to turn (read 66% F weight). Yes you can drive the car in anger, and I can for a few corners that I am comfortable with. Right now I lack the seat time/skill to attack every corner with anger.
My car conveniently falls into a very grey area in between classes. So most of my racing is kept withing Chumpcar style endurance races. I prefer the Rat Race series at ORP ($1000 for a weekend for an entire team:enrty, tires, fuel, transportation)
It also is the halfway rally car. So it has some seam welding, over built (for road use) cage, reinforced subframe. We just swap suspension and skip plates to go play in the dirt.

No, all the Sierra things were min 1230kg--and in practice, 1230kg on the dot which is 2706lbs empty...400lbs about 15% heavier...and a lot more power, and can't forget the relationship between power/gearing and weight

ie 40mphsteady speed + xxxx whgt is one thing , 40 mph snapshot of car acclerationg with loads power like 350 hp and gearing and xxxx wght is another thing,
40mph + xxxx wght decelerating HARD is another.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.