Camber angle -how much does it affect cv angles?

TLDR version:
1. I put taller stiffer front coils in my fwd-because bottoming issues.

2. maybe a bit too tall-shakes under accel.

3. is it just the too tall-springs or did the resulting decambering add to the problem?



Full version:


I never even considered this concept until last night....literally laying in bed trying to fall asleep-but can't because I'm pissed about my new "pretty severe vibration under acceleration only" that I now have because of a front spring change.

Car is not a stage-rally car-yet..

Just trying to maintain my current lead in the local cone squisher prepared 2wd class for now.

Been running on SVT springs F & R,because they are 20% stiffer than the butter-soft stock Foci springs-and they dont lower the car much..so clearance is good.
But suspension was bottoming regularly in front-so-this is kind of ghetto-but I put
.80 " machined aluminum spacers between the front top mount and strut bearing.

This wouldn't increase rate of course-but would put the strut statically in a better position and help keep me off the bump stops...

And you know what..car works pretty good with this setup..until the course gets really rutted..then depending on the run-severe bottoming as I don't lift fer nuttin'-well maybe a turn!


So...I called coil spring specialties..for $250 they build a set to your specs..to tide me over(along with fresh struts for 2013) till i get sooper bitchens.. some day-which I really want-but do i need?-now-no..I need seat time.

I went to a taller and stiffer front spring,that was supposed to set the car ride-height wise-about 1" taller in front than a stock focus.
Before i ordered the new springs,I jacked up the car both sides,measured carefully droop and uptravel as best I could,attempting to get a ride height that would give me about 30% droop...guessimated that i was at about stock Focus height in front with the spacers...then pulled the new spring rate right out of my ass......

Well..I think I did ok on the rate....either i fucked up on the height-or the spring guys got it a little wrong...the cars pretty tall in front.


Before pic-On my street wheels and tires, and on Svt Focus springs front and rear-but with a short spacer in front:



Same set-up,but no more spacers and custom coils in front:



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Does it seem that crazy tall in front?


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And..just because..well dirt pics and gravel wheels better than paved parking lot and street wheels:














So-on the new front coils it handles quite well(considering camber loss)and rides pretty good-haven't found dirt with it...or even speed bumps to sail over..because.....i'm too scared about the vibration under accell....it's pretty bad.

I was thinking-even though it appears I got more lift than I planned-I didn't raise the car THAT much(and I alreadyknew a ride height increase would decrease my camber somewhat)that i should get such a severe vibration-but then lying in bed I thought..maybe being at the extreme edge of height PLUS the decambering added together are affecting the cv angle and making the car shake.

For now..since i'm running on Sat and Sun the svt springs/spacers are going back in tomorrow(i'll measure droop before i pull the tall springs out) ...but for later..

Maybe-if I threw in some camber plates at 2 or 3 degrees negative that i used to run when I was on Roadrace springs(and maybe snip half a coil or so-yeah-I know..not the best way-and makes coil stiffer)would fix the problem..or maybe not.

What do you guys think?

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The axles are angled downward, so increasing camber is going to increase the CV angles, although it will "shorten" the axles, if it's done with camber plates.

seeing as my buddies' monster-truck sentra is probably 2" higher than your car and doesn't seem to have any of those issues, I'm not sure I'd blame the shake-under-accel on the new springs/ride height.

didja get everything tight after installing the springs?
Alignment after changing the ride height?

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Raising car a lot will stress the cv, decreasing the camber actually relieves some of that stress as it keeps the outer angle smaller. Your pics don't look near tall enough to cause grief. Maybe one of the cvs came apart inside? Pretty easy to do .

THIS :

Quote
heymagic
Maybe one of the cvs came apart inside? Pretty easy to do .

OR THIS:

Quote
Aaron Luptak
everything tight after install? Alignment after changing the ride height?

check your alignment, changing steering rod angle = +/- toe..

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I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

Shake on accel is USUALLY the inner CVs, changing the ride height is going to change the angle and also the plunge depth, so if you had a nice worn-in spot before, you're now running it in and out of that spot and vibration.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

First. Great color Focus. Is that Malbu Blue or the French Blue that came out a couple of years later.

Back on topic. I have run my rally focus at a bunch of different ride heights over the years and it has not caused any CV joint issues. I have noticed that they handling gets weird when the front gets a lot higher than the rears like you have with your custom coils.

My guess is that what happened is one of 3 things:

1. Your axles are bad. These are pretty cheap. Last time I bought them they were $60 a side for brand new ones not remans.

2. That you over extended the inner CV joint while installing one of the longer springs and have damaged the axels. This is easy to do especially when trying to get the strut into the socket on the knuckle

3. Something is loose after the install of the springs. Did the top hats get run down all of the way on the struts? Did you the wheel get put back on and torqued properly. Might be worth it to just re torque everything in the front end.

Thanks for replies,guys.

My plan was to drive it a day or two to see if the springs settled a bit then align.

So no-I didn't align it yet-Im sure the toe is wacked-although it goes down the road ok.

steering feels kinda light....

Could be a sorta death wobble-from screwy alignment-huh?


Ok-so the action plan before changing back to old springs.

1. check droop-if it's too tall and droop ain't enough-gotta lose the new springs anyway.

2. check cv's-make sure nothing's coming apart as Gene say's.

3. Check steering/suspension for tight and good, align it and see what happens.....

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................................................. .....................

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Quote
Andrew_Frick
First. Great color Focus. Is that Malbu Blue or the French Blue that came out a couple of years later.

Back on topic. I have run my rally focus at a bunch of different ride heights over the years and it has not caused any CV joint issues. I have noticed that they handling gets weird when the front gets a lot higher than the rears like you have with your custom coils.

My guess is that what happened is one of 3 things:

1. Your axles are bad. These are pretty cheap. Last time I bought them they were $60 a side for brand new ones not remans.

2. That you over extended the inner CV joint while installing one of the longer springs and have damaged the axels. This is easy to do especially when trying to get the strut into the socket on the knuckle

3. Something is loose after the install of the springs. Did the top hats get run down all of the way on the struts? Did you the wheel get put back on and torqued properly. Might be worth it to just re torque everything in the front end.

Hey Andrew,

It's French Blue...

And I'll check and recheck the things you mentioned.

Thanks!

---

................................................. .....................

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While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!!

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Quote
RALLYRS
Thanks for replies,guys.

My plan was to drive it a day or two to see if the springs settled a bit then align.

So no-I didn't align it yet-Im sure the toe is wacked-although it goes down the road ok.

steering feels kinda light....

Could be a sorta death wobble-from screwy alignment-huh?


Ok-so the action plan before changing back to old springs.

1. check droop-if it's too tall and droop ain't enough-gotta lose the new springs anyway.

2. check cv's-make sure nothing's coming apart as Gene say's.

3. Check steering/suspension for tight and good, align it and see what happens.....

Look, first, your suspension isn't any longer than before, it is just "static unladen height" that is a weeeeee bit higher.. The suspension was previously there sometimes, like when heeled over, and the side extended.
Tooo much looking for complicated answers, when the 1st thing is what that guy Pete (he's almost always pretty good on these things, so pay attention to him. I think he works on cars for a living) was pounting to; inner "plunging tri-bearing" and i say the cup the ride in.. 99% of the time a car goes straight ahead and is in one height, the innder drive cup thangs that push the inner tri-bear do gey divots in them. Change position and they do this uh uh uh uh thing on accel...

First, grovel under the car and peel back the boot and run you fingers on the drive side of the slot the tri-bearing rides in--IF you feel anything do this:

There are places to check PNs
Check the PN for the inner drive cup thang for both side--the stubby thang that sticks outta the box.
If same PN swap them side for side, reassemble and enjoy..
They're only retained with a circlip so a sharp whack at a low angle will pop 'em out.

Don't worry about alignment for a slight tiny change in ride height.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2013 06:35PM by john vanlandingham.

I remember it used to be a SAAB 900 thing to swap axles side for side when they'd start to get the acceleration shake. Most people spend all their time driving forwards so only one side of the cup gets worn. It's like rotating your tires, but with axles.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Ok..Got that guys-i'll check that stuff.

Concerning my uptravel and droop... published front strut travel collapsed to extended is

6.25"


i just jacked up the car..and on the new springs..got 2.25" droop on the drivers side
and 2" on the passenger side.

These figures are AT THE WHEEL.

Assuming I get my other problems worked out..do you think that's good?

---

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Quote
Pete
I remember it used to be a SAAB 900 thing to swap axles side for side when they'd start to get the acceleration shake. Most people spend all their time driving forwards so only one side of the cup gets worn. It's like rotating your tires, but with axles.

This:


Oh loooooooooooooooooooong before there were any thoughts in some square-heads bone filled head we were already swapping in mighty Saab 96 inner thangs side to side...

Nother piccie, just a little divot and it does the judder:

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
RALLYRS
Ok..Got that guys-i'll check that stuff.

Concerning my uptravel and droop... published front strut travel collapsed to extended is

6.25"


i just jacked up the car..and on the new springs..got 2.25" droop on the drivers side
and 2" on the passenger side.

These figures are AT THE WHEEL.

Assuming I get my other problems worked out..do you think that's good?

I'd want to see a bit more droop, and of course more overall travel but hey what can you do.. I know my old saab did the judder deal when I had way to little droop when I first mounted up proper Saab Sport and rally spings..and the ride was harsh. Cut 5/8th of a coil off--making the springs X% stiffer but sitting at original height, and the ride was better-er and no more judder.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks John.

I'm gonna mess with the cv cage thang-align it(just for shits and giggles-plus itlooks like the toes off and I DO want to know what my camber /castor is) and race this weekend with the new springs..

May do a bit of snippage on the springs for more droop someday we'll see....

---

................................................. .....................

Support your Local North American Rally Forum!!

While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!!

We still have Specialstage & RallyAnarchy.

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