kwesley Kevin Wesley Senior Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/28/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 46 Rally Car: 1976 Dodge Dart Lite |
Few updates on the Dart this week.
Just went ahead and had them cut the door bars out to redo them. The benefits of doing it again correctly won over me being pissed off that it was done kind of wrong in the first place. They will end up fitting better, clearance my window cranks (no power windows required now) and will be legal for all the sanctioning bodies. What's another few hours of work when it's getting so much done already. At least that's what I keep telling myself. They cut out the trunk tire well since we are putting in a cell. They measured and decided to move the upper shock mount so the shock isn't at such a nasty angle. I liked the idea and it will be easier to convert to 4 link or something in the future as well. Bar going across between the tubes will end up being the upper shock mount after they sort out the shock length with Fox. Some tube fitment... They are extending the rear down tubes now to tie into the rear leaf spring mounts and frame. Should have some more pics of the rest of the rear cage mocked up pretty soon. They had some fun getting the headers in the first time and mocking up engine fitment. Turned out ok. There is some trimming, bending and clearance issues, but nothing really that bad. I'm glad they are going at a good pace. At this rate I think they will hit the goal of running/driving by April 1st. Thanks, Kevin Wesley |
Morison Banned Professional Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
I think those back-stays are going to cause you problems - depending on where you want to race the car.
Before you go too far down that road you may want to check with various sanctioning bodies on their thoughts. (If you already have... nevermind) First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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simoniac Simon Wright Senior Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 10/19/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 161 Rally Car: Rally Spec Focus |
Kevin,
I may be wrong but I vaguely recall a rule about cages not extending beyond stock strut mount points? Had a quick peek at the FIA doc I have here...
It goes on to say...
I don't know if this helps or not. Nice build though. Simon USUK Racing Simon Wright Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars! North America Rally Map |
simoniac Simon Wright Senior Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 10/19/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 161 Rally Car: Rally Spec Focus |
Been digging a bit more. Rally-America pretty much defer to the FIA specs, but NASA Rally Sport have more detailed rules in their rule set. One of the NRS rules says...
So, clear as mud, huh? Simon Wright Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars! North America Rally Map |
Reamer Jeff Reamer Ultra Moderator Location: Marlette, Michigan Join Date: 08/14/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 489 Rally Car: Subaru |
Leaf spring mounts are clear to the back. If im reading the fia rule correct he is fine? He said his cage is mounting back at where the SPRING mounts?
First rally 2013 Rally car type AWD subaru Total rallies as driver 6 Total rally cars built 2 Total rally cars caged 3 Total rally cars repaired from offs 4 Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs Like 31motorsports on FB! Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts |
Morison Banned Professional Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
The bend in the backstays also jumped out at me... fwiw
from 253-8 "They must form an angle of at least 30° with the vertical, must run rearwards and be straight and as close as possible to the interior side panels of the bodyshell." First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2013 06:35PM by Morison. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Ya didn't ax but if I was doing a high power rwd car I would give serious thought to this simple deal:
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=137980
Scaled up, of course. This would allow you A) nice 9.3" travel and easy selection of springs a much nicer place to attach the back stays and diagonals and a tube up from main hoop to the backstay/diagonals junction The more power you have the more rear travel is important on gravel.... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
kwesley Kevin Wesley Senior Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/28/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 46 Rally Car: 1976 Dodge Dart Lite |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Has to be? "various" reasons.. Come on that's too vague. Whu "has to be"? What "various" reasons? If you have to use leaf then study how the btsy car in the world solved the problem of the changing length of the springs. And the towers/turrets can be used with doing the coil in the logical way, but you don't have to, you can just put the shocks in the tower...just like Ford did. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
tdrrally edward mucklow Godlike Moderator Location: charleston,wv Join Date: 05/31/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 763 Rally Car: ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle |
this will help with spring wrap
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Camaro-Leaf-Spring-Sliders,60313.html I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow! first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it! |
fiasco Andrew Steere Super Moderator Location: South Central Nude Hamster Join Date: 12/29/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 2,008 Rally Car: too rich for my blood, share a LeMons car |
I can tell you from a crapcan racing standpoint, the rear bars are a fail, because they have a bend in them (even though it's small and at the back), and they terminate behind the end of the rear tires. Also, with a fuel cell, the Lemons guys DON'T want the fuel cell tied to the cage. They want bars around it, but want that structure independent of the rollover structure. I'm not saying that's what's best, but that's the little bit of road racing weenie perspective I can offer. Road race and rally types want those rear bars coming down as close to 45 degrees as practical.
I understand what you're trying to accomplish here, but check with the relevant tech stewards before proceeding. Doing something that ends near the rear axle line is going to probably be your best bet, even if you have to continue to use leaf springs. You may be better off tying in the rear spring mounts with some boxed "frame rails" that tie in to rear bars that terminate closer to the 45 degree desires of those tech stewards. Andrew Steere Lyndeborough, NH KB1PJY |
kwesley Kevin Wesley Senior Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/28/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 46 Rally Car: 1976 Dodge Dart Lite |
So it looks like based on the rear suspension point the back stays are ok for the FIA.
NASA Rally says 30 degrees... "The backstays must be attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends of the main rollbar or lateral rollbars,on both sides of the car. They must make an angle of at least 30° relative to a vertical plane, must run rearwards, must be straight, and be placed as close as practical to the interior side panels of the body shell. Although not required to do so, the backstays usually connect to the rear strut towers." NASA Road Race says 30 degrees... "15.6.11 Rear Braces - The main hoop should have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top. The braces should not contain any bends*. There must be at least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces may consist of an “X” pattern design. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces. *There may be certain exceptions allowed for cars that can not possible meet this “no bend” requirement. One exception is listed [Ref15.6.11.A)]. Other exceptions may be made if all of the required bars meet the specifications for a vehicle in the next heavier weight classification and the alternative design is submitted to the NASA National Office for special allowance." Pikes Peak say's 30 degrees... "The fore-aft bracing must be attached as near as possible to the main roll hoop but no more than six (6) inches below the top of the hoop and at an inclined angle of at least thirty(30) degrees." If it's going to run anything, it will primarily be NASA in AIX and a tarmac event if they have any. Trying to get all tech inspectors happy will not be possible, I'm sure of that. I'll have them hold up a couple days until I can get the minor bend answered clearly. Thanks, Kevin Wesley |
DG_Rally Dave Grenwis Super Moderator Location: Minneapolis, MN Join Date: 08/16/2012 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 125 Rally Car: '92 VW Golf |
The backstays on my car connected to the floor behind the wheels wells and had a bend in them right above that, not the same as your car but similar idea. The car was logbooked in the early 2000's by SCCA and was grandfathered into Rally America per the 2006(?) rulebook. Even though it was grandfathered in, at every event I had a the scrutineer look at the cage and say it was wrong. Since it was grandfathered in, they never put a "fix it" in the logbook. I was personally told by Mike Hurst to fix it. He explained that the cage was effectively eliminating the rear crumple zone. If we had a bad rear impact, the force was going to directly to the cage and that would be bad for both the passengers and the car. I ended up changing the cage.
Get confirmation from Hurst if you plan to get a Rally America Logbook because their interpretation of the rules may be different than yours. I would change it if I were you, it's just going to be easier to deal with in the long run. Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com |
kwesley Kevin Wesley Senior Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/28/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 46 Rally Car: 1976 Dodge Dart Lite |
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kwesley Kevin Wesley Senior Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/28/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 46 Rally Car: 1976 Dodge Dart Lite |
Too vague? I thought more of too boring. The car needs to be torsion bar and leaf springs for tarmac, road course and autocross events. I've set a standard over many years of being fast in stock suspended Mopars and have proven that you can be fast with leaf springs. Need to maintain that for the foreseeable future when it relates to asphalt and at events that will be supported by my current sponsors. There is a big misconception in the Mopar community that you have to cut the front/rear suspension off the cars and replace them with coilovers. Currently, all of the fastest old Mopars that are at these events are all torsion/leaf cars. I would like to continue to beat down the coilover crowd, it's fun. If, at some point I want to get all serious gravel with the car, I would consider ditching the leafs springs. But, even then I think there is some clear guidance on getting a leaf car to work fairly well, as you referenced. Thanks, Kevin Wesley |