Mk4 VW suspension thoughts

Didn't he also say he was gong to call? Or did I read that wrong, it was written in plain english. 7th post down last line before his name.

Didn't I say I had no effing clue on those particulars?

I gave what advise I had with product I've used and seen used.

and John but if you've written it before maybe you could just cut and paste it and save us all.

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DexterVW
Didn't he also say he was gong to call? Or did I read that wrong, it was written in plain english. 7th post down last line before his name.

Didn't I say I had no effing clue on those particulars?

I gave what advise I had with product I've used and seen used.

and John but if you've written it before maybe you could just cut and paste it and save us all.

Man you like arguing, dotcha?

maybe you could just cut and paste it?


Yeah the guy said he was going to call "after he had a chance to think"..
wrong thinking.
You think after you get information, "thinking" before hand isn't "thinking", it's idle speculation.

Yesterday I was home with my girls, had time; today its packing UPS Machine shop to drop off block and head, crank shop, machine shop for some whittling, then go pick up a free 88 Volvo wagon, typical 14 hour day.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

not really John, just not in the mood to see what could have been a cool post killed by the negativity of a "its all going to turn out the same" by someone who is starting to bully people with stupid remarks.

whats wrong with "gathering his thoughts" before calling you? Maybe he want to sound intelligent, do a little more research before stepping into a cage with a lion. Miss informed and you'd eat him alive... informed maybe he could stick his head in your mouth and learn something useful.

There are about 20 different OEM front shocks listed for the mk4 platform. Some of those will be of no use as the less powerful versions used a smaller ID where the strut slips into the knuckle.
Possibly some of the suspension components fitted to the heavy V5 / V6 engined and or 4wd vehicles will have both stronger springs and shocks with better dampening.

What OEM spec is your car? Reason I ask is some models came with lower suspension and big alloys with low profile tyres, neither of which are particularly good for your intended use.

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

John,
Thinking means reading posts on here and having a look through the gallery on your website. That is what had me rule out off the shelf VW components. It's also made me think about top mounts, I'm planning on subaru ones if i can make them work. Ideally I would like too make them a drop in fit, unfortunately junkyards around here think they are worth a lot more than the $5 you report.


David,

I'm familiar with shine. Their rates are 225# and 180# which is roughly what I based my initial thoughts off of. They do rely heavily on a very stiff rear sway bar, which is something I'd like to avoid if possible. I actually find the balance of the car is fairly good with the front bar disconnected and the standard rear beam.
I really want to build something like a shine+ kind of setup. A little taller with maybe a bit more travel and some struts more suited to loose surfaces.

Danny,
It's a bog stock tdi with little brakes and 15" wheels. To the best of my searching ability I've found that all mk4 struts can be interchanged, but none have all that much travel. There also aren't any inverted units available. Stock spring rates are supposed to be in the 150# range, I've got my hands on some vr6 units that should be a bit taller and around 170# just to play with.

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DexterVW
not really John, just not in the mood to see what could have been a cool post killed by the negativity of a "its all going to turn out the same" by someone who is starting to bully people with stupid remarks.

whats wrong with "gathering his thoughts" before calling you? Maybe he want to sound intelligent, do a little more research before stepping into a cage with a lion. Miss informed and you'd eat him alive... informed maybe he could stick his head in your mouth and learn something useful.

Bullshit from the first keystroke. MOST---including some that sell stuff to innocents---know nothing when they call, and that's no problem---indeed its just those who cruise "the Web" and believe they better not not "sound intelligent" that are more problematical..Wastes time trying to impress me---

And what's wrong---I guess I can't explain to you.

Final attempt, lets say the subject is"causes of temp variation at the core of the sun and the effect on the Aurora Borealis"
I know zero... What is the point of me "thinking"? The point of "gathering my thoughts"?
My thoughts are all doo doo on that subject.
Whatever is going on in my brain is not "thinking", it would be better called rumination---or mental wanking.


an old cowbody saying sums it pretty well; You learn with your eyes and your ears, not your mouth.

--->And there has been no negativity at all till you came along and started whining.
Which has not helped anybody...just normal internet zero info complaining--about somebody who was fruitlessly TRYING to help.

There has been a futile attempt to, in a leisurely way, suggest some alternate ideas, and help him understand the error--obviously shared by many---about "thinking" about things.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not all mk4 struts will interchange with one another so beware of the dimension at the knuckle.
There are differences for sure, I'll hazard a guess it's likely the smaller diameter strut tube is restricted to vehicles using 256mm discs and integral caliper carrier.
That said I would be interested to learn if some vehicles with the larger 280mm discs and detachable caliper carriers ever came with the smaller strut ID.

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

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Grantmac
If I had cubic money I'd be asking you to make me something. I'd probably also not be driving a TDI (the ultimate cheapskate mobile).

Well it's like they say, the cheapest people end up spending the most money.

High cost of buy-in, high maintenance costs, and the fuel is expensive enough that you're spending more per mile than if you just bought a 2.0 and ran it on 92 octane, which if it's anything like my old 1.8, made it get economy better enough that the break even point between 87oct and 92oct was around $2/gallon for 87, and it hasn't been that cheap (here at least) in maybe 15 years.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
danster
Not all mk4 struts will interchange with one another so beware of the dimension at the knuckle.
There are differences for sure, I'll hazard a guess it's likely the smaller diameter strut tube is restricted to vehicles using 256mm discs and integral caliper carrier.
That said I would be interested to learn if some vehicles with the larger 280mm discs and detachable caliper carriers ever came with the smaller strut ID.

all dat's prolly weight related...Wif Frods its easy: 2wd is 45.5mm, BIG or 4x4 is 50,8mm

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yes, the Bilstein front struts for mk4s are 'inverted' 34mm or 36mm units (I have never measured)

Yes,they are simple on an MK4 -- tube, alignment guide hook-thingy, threaded adjusters, top seal, bushes, internal bump stop, threaded hole at bottom & vent hole.... But you already said you would not be making bushes so that means this is out of the question unless you just intend to buy some blown Bilsteins and have them rebuilt and revalved.

Yes, you can use Subaru top mounts with very little effort. You can even keep the 'cone' at the top of the strut tower. You will lose about 3/4" of upward wheel displacement in compression if you don't extend the strut tower to compensate. This doesn't necessarily mean that you lose total travel but you starting and ending heights will be 3/4" higher than stock at static ride height and fully compressed (ceterus paribus).

Yes you can buy used subie mounts for dirt cheap at junk yards or off NASIOC or even perhaps for free from the multitude of rallyists who move to camber plates

250# fronts is totally fine.

300# front and 200# rear is a decent street and gravel play thing setup on the mk4 with stock travel stuff.. Works well with no front bar and the stock rear beam. Also happens to be the same combination that Shine sold. If you have longer travel, the rates can come down as it is easier to stay off the bump stops.


Call John. Charge your phone first. You may be surprised at the price and will likely get good advice along the way even if you don't end up making a purchase... All without all this internet bravado nonsense that has once again overwhelmed rallyanarchy (not that John has helped himself in this respect either). I was an early adopter of JVAB VW front struts in 2003 for about $850 I think. I did 25+ events on them with great results with minimal maintenance --- just pulled them and greased them every event or two. The still hold up the front end of my project/practice car.



Get a steel oil pan if you don't already have one. Even if you make a skid plate, get the steel pan. Not the stupid overpriced 'hybrid pan' either.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

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john vanlandingham
But I am not going to waste a bunch of time typing this for the 10-12th time like before--and note: none of them got anything done----except one that just was nearer)(by lopping off fixed seats---decided after all the wisdom on the Intra-web on :

TOO SHORT travel--too long pins and damping values too stiff for a 1230kg Escort Cosworth.
Too bad it was on a car that weighed only 60% of that.

It is the stingy man who pays the most...

But John will spend hours on the phone with you. I suggest picking up at least a six and getting comfy in the BarcaLoungerwith muted rally vids on the idiot box prior to dialing.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Note: Bilstein has done a lot to confuse issues because Bilstein USA Sale people think metric is going to corn-fuse people.

So the "B36" tells you the piston inside---which you don't need to wrry about---is 36mm. Measure the fat chrome tube and its 40mm for most and in other markets there are ---like Josh Wimpey and a few others have gotten, 41mm bodies.

The rear shocks which you see as circle track or most older shocks they called "B46" or "2 inch" have a 46mm piston and a 50mm OD body.

There are some real skinny things which are like maybe 32mm OD but we won't worry about those, too skinny, and tooooooooooooo short..

Easiest in our context is to just call them 40s or 50s.

The Subaru may not cost height--depends on the way the pin at the top is finished.. Using the inserts Bilstein sells as Golf I and II stuff is wasterful of length---and the actual insert is longer---while the travel is short---just 160mm. The insert I supply body is shorter, travel is 190mm and 200 is do-able, and the pin at top is less costly of length so you get that 190-200 in the same overall length that you get just 160 out of the catalog.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Note: Bilstein has done a lot to confuse issues because Bilstein USA Sale people think metric is going to corn-fuse people.

So the "B36" tells you the piston inside---which you don't need to wrry about---is 36mm. Measure the fat chrome tube and its 40mm for most and in other markets there are ---like Josh Wimpey and a few others have gotten, 41mm bodies.

The rear shocks which you see as circle track or most older shocks they called "B46" or "2 inch" have a 46mm piston and a 50mm OD body.

There are some real skinny things which are like maybe 32mm OD but we won't worry about those, too skinny, and tooooooooooooo short..

Easiest in our context is to just call them 40s or 50s.

The Subaru may not cost height--depends on the way the pin at the top is finished.. Using the inserts Bilstein sells as Golf I and II stuff is wasterful of length---and the actual insert is longer---while the travel is short---just 160mm. The insert I supply body is shorter, travel is 190mm and 200 is do-able, and the pin at top is less costly of length so you get that 190-200 in the same overall length that you get just 160 out of the catalog.

Which takes two hours to 'splain on the phone.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Danny:
I've measured everything from A3/TT/R32 down to piddly TDI stuff, all the same diameter. Different swaybar mounting is all.

Pete:
I live in the land of $4.50/gal 87oct ($5.50 for 94) and I drive a lot. The TDi paid for itself a while ago. Plus it's much more fun then a 2.0

Josh:
That is great data! Are you talking the Bilstein PSS coil-over or just the HD is 36mm inverted? The inserts I'm talking about come complete with bushings since they are designed to replace the factory "wet" inserts on the Audi Quattro. I am confident in making many things but not in producing a brass bushing to those tolerances. Any reason you aren't still using those JVAB struts? What did you do for the rears?
Roger out on the oil pan. I will consider that the next item.

John:
Very good info, that is the kind of stuff I was looking for. I will have time coming up this weekend or next week to have a chat. Getting home too late from work to do it sooner.

Thanks,
Grant

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wvonkessler

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john vanlandingham
Note: Bilstein has done a lot to confuse issues because Bilstein USA Sale people think metric is going to corn-fuse people.

So the "B36" tells you the piston inside---which you don't need to wrry about---is 36mm. Measure the fat chrome tube and its 40mm for most and in other markets there are ---like Josh Wimpey and a few others have gotten, 41mm bodies.

The rear shocks which you see as circle track or most older shocks they called "B46" or "2 inch" have a 46mm piston and a 50mm OD body.

There are some real skinny things which are like maybe 32mm OD but we won't worry about those, too skinny, and tooooooooooooo short..

Easiest in our context is to just call them 40s or 50s.

The Subaru may not cost height--depends on the way the pin at the top is finished.. Using the inserts Bilstein sells as Golf I and II stuff is wasterful of length---and the actual insert is longer---while the travel is short---just 160mm. The insert I supply body is shorter, travel is 190mm and 200 is do-able, and the pin at top is less costly of length so you get that 190-200 in the same overall length that you get just 160 out of the catalog.

Which takes two hours to 'splain on the phone.

What takes time to ASK is： where does he intend to buy material? (they sell the stuff in "random lengths" of 19-23 feet. Buy less and the price skyrockets. Over $20/foot when buying a whole stick.
Ask: you do threading routinely---have the DIN max and min? Gonna cad plate it? what about lengths and overlap...seals, bottoms, taps design?
What does he plan to do if he is like most humans and is off by .001"-.002" on the threads on the tube or the spring seats?
Where he gonna find bushings? what material, what OD?
How's he going to holt the thing? Can the tube pass thru the chuck? drive dog? what about centers?

A ton of things all which can--and have, gone wrong..


Then the inserts....

What about options?

Second hand? Second hand DMS tubes for 40s?

Type type type?
Fuck typing. More talk, less fapping.
Especially if one is giving away information for free.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.