1986 VW build...The infected grow in numbers

So it begins,

Hello all, feel free to call me Eugene since there is another "Gene" here already. I used to hotrod cars, build 4x4's and now I have matured to wanting to get into rally. I've been lurking trying to learn as much as I can but for me until I do something I won't really understand it, so, to quote another member "I've spent 90% of my money on good whiskey and women and the other 10% i've wasted"...Haha, I'd rather waste the remaining 10% on rally so here I go.

Originally I picked up a 1979 Ford Fiesta but it was such a nice specimen I couldn't bring myself to tear it up. So, then came this VW. For a rust free az car complete that runs for 700.00 I couldn't go wrong...I hope. My plans are to build at a steady pace to compete in 2015. I'm a pilot and gone quit often so realistically I'm giving myself a year. I would like this car to also be my back up airport car, another reason the build will be slower than most.

Anyway, the immediate threats with the car:

Bad Leaking Power Steering Leak:
I'm not sure where the leak is coming from as I have not been home to thoroughly inspect it.

Fuel Leak:
Seems to be coming from near the rear of the car at some small black box.

It was dark when I bought the car and really didn't have time to figure things out, I will be back in a few days to give it a once over.

My questions are this...

1. For the steering leak, I was searching the forums and seeing some guys advocating manual steering yet most power steering. All my current vehicles (1976 BMW 2002 and 1978 Jeep J10) don't have power steering and I haven't had much of a problem. Yet, I could see the benefits of power steering on dirt when slow. Rockcrawling you want power steering however blasting around at speed would it make much of a difference?I found this and was curious what y'all think?

http://www.eaaengineering.com/manual-steering-conversions/

2. WIth regard to fuel delivery I am an advocate of cells from my previous experience...well I'm an advocate of relocating tanks, cells are expensive, so I plan on replumbing the fuel system and maybe upgrading to a cell. Is the general consensus that a 100mi worth of fuel is sufficient or overkill?

Thanks for reading.

you will need power steering on a rally
when you need the power steering you don't need the hp

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Power steering is vital on a Golf. Steering rack limiter spacers are also a very good idea.

The black box is the fuel accumulator near the secondary fuel pump. Think about reconfiguring the fuel system to parallel high pressure pumps.

Read your rule book before you decide about a cell, try to monkey with the OEM tank or move components.

KCMO is a great town!

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I can see power steering having benefits yet any time I can get away with less complicated stuff the better, in my opinion. Seems like power steering would be just one more thing to rob me of power and break but if I can't control the vehicle stuff will defiantly break anyway and in a more catastrophic way I'm sure. So, keep the power steering and add "limiters" to prevent breakage at full lock I suppose. I have read the rule books and noticed the grouping using OE tanks in in OE locations or protect the heck out of a cell. After destroying fuel tanks on trails, I feel throwing a cell in the back would serve two purposes, help protect the fuel from damage and reduce weight by negating the need for armor to protect the fuel tank. Might also give me a little more ground clearance and space to play with suspension and drivetrain. The collector box must be what is leaking. I probably jumped on the forum prematurely since the car is still in az and I just relocated for work. I'm on my way to get it right now and will be in a far better position to post as I start my build. Thanks for the comments so far. Any tips anyone wants to chime in with for a newb would be greatly appreciated. Like anything, experience is worth it's weight in gold because you spend a fortune figuring out what works and what doesn't.

VW Power steering is a constant annoyance. I broke off a couple bungs on my pumps, and they were always coming loose.

Going to an electric pump, or steering-column assist (there's a thread on here about converting a Saturn? unit) is not a bad idea. I have a half finished MK3 in the garage, and have an electric pump waiting to go in it.

CVs are a weak point.

I never had any problems with the stock tank being covered with a sheet of plastic. One solution I've seen (Wimpey I think ) is to get a second tank, cut it in half, and put it under the stock tank. The advantage to the stock tank is you can use the spare tire well to house the high-pressure pump needed for CIS. The black box is the accumulator for the High pressure pump. I'm moving that whole assembly into the tire well. I don't think the box is too expensive on EBay if you need a new one...but probably smarter to go aftermarket if you've got to spend money on it.

Hi,

I more or less stopped posting here, but I saw this and it intrigued me.

I have a few Golfs, two of which are rallycars. Taking your points in order:

Quote
eugene.reish
Bad Leaking Power Steering Leak:
I'm not sure where the leak is coming from as I have not been home to thoroughly inspect it.
...
1. For the steering leak, I was searching the forums and seeing some guys advocating manual steering yet most power steering. All my current vehicles (1976 BMW 2002 and 1978 Jeep J10) don't have power steering and I haven't had much of a problem. Yet, I could see the benefits of power steering on dirt when slow. Rockcrawling you want power steering however blasting around at speed would it make much of a difference?I found this and was curious what y'all think?

First of all, where is it leaking? It may be something as simple as a cracked reservoir box, which is cheap buy new (about $30) and easy to replace. If it's the pump, that's also pretty easy to replace; just go junkyard diving (all the MK2 ones are the same) and take your chances with what you find. Or you can buy one new; they're about $140. If it's the rack it's most likely the seals and that requires pulling the rack.

Getting to the rack isn't that hard but it's kind of a chore. There may be an easier way, but I usually do it by supporting the engine from the top and then dropping the subframe. That requires removing the swaybar and axles and parts of the shift linkage.

As for converting it to manual - I wouldn't recommend it. Among other things, I think the U-joint from the column to the rack is different, but I can't remember. Certainly the pulley organization is different. In a PS car, the PS belt drives the waterpump too. At first glance it looks like you can just take off the outer belt and run the WP and alternator off one belt, but you'll find that the inner pulley on the WP is just an idler pulley and if you try to run without the outer pulley the waterpump won't spin. You can rearrange all that of course, but the point is it's not as trivial as it looks.

At this point I'd recommend figuring out where the leak is and then reporting back.

Quote
eugene.reish
Fuel Leak:
Seems to be coming from near the rear of the car at some small black box.
...
2. WIth regard to fuel delivery I am an advocate of cells from my previous experience...well I'm an advocate of relocating tanks, cells are expensive, so I plan on replumbing the fuel system and maybe upgrading to a cell. Is the general consensus that a 100mi worth of fuel is sufficient or overkill?

The black box itself isn't the fuel accumulator, that's the cylindrical thing on the outside, towards the outside of the car. Those rarely go bad. The cylindrical thing on the inside side of the car that looks like fuel filter is, in fact, the fuel filter. The black box itself is just a fuel reservoir for feeding the main pump. After many years, the plastic start getting brittle and they'll sometimes fracture just from the vibration. However, the more likely suspect is the big green O-ring that seals the fuel pump into the box. Those dry out and crack, particularly if the car hasn't been run in awhile.

If it's the box itself, you're kind of in a pickle as far as I know. Those early 8v's use a 60mm pump and I don't think the 60mm boxes are available anymore. The later 8v's use a 46.5mm pump and box and those will work just fine, but you need to get both the box AND the pump. The box is around $150. A pump is ridiculously expensive at around $300.

I run all my cars with the stock tank and pumps. To protect them, I go to the junkyard and get a second fuel tank, slice the bottom half off (like cutting a biscuit) and then put that under the real tank. Then I silicone around the outside to keep gravel from worming its way in. The whole thing goes back in using the stock three metal bands.

You can put a cell in if you like, but I don't see the worth. I mean, if you like fabricating and plumbing and so on, feel free. I'm sort of in the camp of "do the minimum it takes to get it robust, and then get out on the stages". Some older cars have metal tanks that sit pretty exposed and I'd definitely consider a fuel cell in that situation, but the plastic ones in a Golf more or less just let stuff bounce off. Frankly, you're more likely to bend the right rear beam/strut and have the wheel rub a hole in the filler than you are puncturing it on a rock. And you have other stuff to work on to get it rallyable.

And in regards to your actual question on the subject, there's a rule somewhere that indicates that legs should be no more than 90mi before a refuel opportunity, but I don't think it's ever mentioned whether that's 90mi total or 90mi at WOT.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
And in regards to your actual question on the subject, there's a rule somewhere that indicates that legs should be no more than 90mi before a refuel opportunity, but I don't think it's ever mentioned whether that's 90mi total or 90mi at WOT.

For RA
"The distance between services shall not include more than 45 stage miles nor more than 90 overall miles."

Quote
hoche
Hi,

I more or less stopped posting here, but I saw this and it intrigued me.

I have a few Golfs, two of which are rallycars. Taking your points in order:


Frankly, you're more likely to bend the right rear beam/strut and have the wheel rub a hole in the filler than you are puncturing it on a rock. And you have other stuff to work on to get it rallyable.

Have seen several good National result sunk with that very thing.

Armor the filler, strengthen the cheesy beam.

Better yet, sell the Golf and spend $11,000 for a insurance write off Ford Fiesta. It's the latest thing and all the cool kids are buying Fiestas...It's only money.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks to all for the replies,

Seems as it's time to start welding up some armor and spend money on gearing and suspension. Hell, it's only money but money saved can be spent on gears, guns, girls and gin. And I had a fiesta, not a 11k valued one, but sadly I sold it...



Michel, Thanks for the long reply, lot of good information there and unfortunately I cant put it to good use. I planed on driving the VW back from AZ but we got hit hard here in KCMO by a storm last night and delays prevented me from flying out so i'm not going to be able to reply with an educated answer as to what the problem is. Fixing things won’t be a problem though. Figuring out what mods might be worth the time/money opposed to direct replacement is where I am curious.

As Chad mentioned, has anyone had any luck with electric steering pumps? I'm curious as to what max pressure the mkii puts out with relation to the other electric pumps. Seems as if people have tried the mR2 and forester pumps with success on the street. I remember using a hydraulic ram on my jeep and it made me feel like I was floating over the gravel at speed which I didn't like, so I wonder if a pump with too much pressure would have a similar feel, disconnecting the driver from feeling the road conditions through the wheel. Additionally for an electro assisted hydraulic pump, I wonder what that will do to the charging system if running exterior lights and whatever else. Aren't the newer vw's have full electric steering? Anyone tried going full electric?

Gene

Hey Gene.
There have been electric pump upgrades going into Golf rally cars since the 90s. There was a big thread on it on specialstage, probably in the archives now but likely easily found with Google.

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Grant Hughes

I would seriously consider the Saturn VUE electric column with an adjustable gain. It's about $300 on ebay for everything, and you can probably junkyard a column and steering control unit cheaper.
The mr2 pump draws 40amps minimum from what I read. That's half of your alternator output. The electric steering column adds power when it's needed, unlike the hydro pumps.
Install should be easy-ish, and you could add a steering quickener as well. I'm not sure of what your fabrication skills are, but it will require some cutting and welding.
If the stock steering isn't too bad, it might be easier to just fix that. If you need a new rack due to seals, then a swap to an electric column might be easier. No need to drop the subframe and all that. Just loop the power steering lines at the rack and hope for the best

Note: This is all from a keyboard rallyists, but fabricators perspective. My car's close, but I keep on finding new ways to spend what little free time I have fiddling with things and making cool custom parts, going to school, and starting a side-business
BTW, if you want some stronger hubs and rear stub axles, let me know. I have a few adapter plates for the mk4 brakes, hubs, and stub axles still available.

I never had any problems with vw power steering....plus it is soooo cheap to get second hand or a complete parts car. A quickener should be the priorty, fix the rest of the system and make sure your skid plate is well braced for that pump way down there.

CV's are easily fixed by using a mk3 PLUS suspenion and axles (find someone parting a car).

DO NOT use a fuel cell, protect the stock tank.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Quote
john vanlandingham

Armor the filler, strengthen the cheesy beam.

What about the spindles? Did the Rally Anarchy braintrust figure a good/cheap way to keep this from happening?



(Highlighted bit is a supposed VWMS stiffening jigger - neat thread over on http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?217443-Mk2-8V-VWMS-Grp-A-Detailed-Information-Please - looks like the good VW perv info is across the pond if you want to know more than how to get phat camber and where to find the best graffiti to photo your car in front of)

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Pete

Quote
john vanlandingham

Armor the filler, strengthen the cheesy beam.

What about the spindles? Did the Rally Anarchy braintrust figure a good/cheap way to keep this from happening?



(Highlighted bit is a supposed VWMS stiffening jigger - neat thread over on http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?217443-Mk2-8V-VWMS-Grp-A-Detailed-Information-Please - looks like the good VW perv info is across the pond if you want to know more than how to get phat camber and where to find the best graffiti to photo your car in front of)

You mean this:


All the cool kids say they have never heard of anybpdy having a problem---so it must not exist.

Now I have seen it and understand it to be a chronic problem---but I'm not the cool kids.. nor were they guys that run their cars hard enough to do 4th and 5th SS times Overall..

And yeah, of course there's a great solution: see what Robert Culbertson came up with after a wee tête-a-tête ici en le maison...
A Good, solid, simple solution. I'd say it's a must have----but again I'm not a Golf guy----I always spanked them with the unfair advantage that the '69 V4 gives one.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Tom B
I never had any problems with vw power steering....plus it is soooo cheap to get second hand or a complete parts car. A quickener should be the priorty, fix the rest of the system and make sure your skid plate is well braced for that pump way down there.

CV's are easily fixed by using a mk3 PLUS suspenion and axles (find someone parting a car).

DO NOT use a fuel cell, protect the stock tank.

you got a fuel cell don't you Tom. Too much PITA?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 09:26PM by alkun.