Civic/integra brakes

So I've been thinking a bit about brakes lately. Paulinho and JVL both have championed better brakes in the (recent) past.

I've been reluctant to spend much time and money on the front brakes on the Civic for a couple of reasons, which I'm fully willing to admit may be wrong:

1) On gravel, how much of a difference does a better braking system make? I don't know how much I've given up using stock calipers and rotor sizes.

2) On gravel, we generate some heat, but not so much where we've had issues with pad fade or boiling fluid. Unlike on road courses, where heat management has been an issue. More so on the Integra, the fluid does get hot, and we do bleed it as part of overnight service to have fresh fluid.

3) Wheel size. Bigger brakes = bigger wheels and potentially less choice. I've had a hard time putting the 15" wheels from the Integra (using even the narrow 15" Michelins, etc.) on the Civic and have it not have rubbing/clearance issues. Seems like Derek Nelson and Brian Gottlieb ran the 15's on Dojo without issues--wondering what they did differently.

4) Unsprung weight. Lighter is better. Although I suppose that even bigger racing brakes could be lighter than stock smaller ones.

I see some benefits other benefits. Easier pad changes, better pad compound options. But I'm wondering if the performance and side benefits outweigh the effort.

Thoughts?

Any specific suggestions?

Just because you don't experience fade doesn't mean you wont benefit from a better system. A better braking system on gravel will do many things. Depending on how heavy of a left foot braker you are, things can get nasty on longer stages.

Amongst many others reasons, the biggest improvement you'll get will be a better control and feel of the tyre/pavement relationship, that will allow you to brake later and modulate better at the limit, especially on gravel where things aren't as clear cut as a road course.

Other reasons will be:
Less brake drag - more freed horsies
Lighter weight and less MOI? Maybe!
More consistency from beginning to end.
Corrected bias
Firmness
Thermal blah blah blah...

As for the 15" wheels, I run 15's in my civic and never had problems. And I run these brakes. If you want I can make you some hats/brackets and all you have to do is buy rings and tweezers.

This was at Sandblast several years back. Looks how hot things were getting. And that's on loose sand, so the idea that on a road course the brakes get more heat is somewhat a grandma tale. True there is more inline G and higher speeds that equate to more energy going into the disc. But in rally theres less chances for the disc to cool down from each application. The actual data shows circuit racing getting higher temp spikes, but rally shows and much higher more "bulk temp". What this means is in circuit you can go from 600-900F average temps to a spike of 1800F when hard braking into a tight turn. In rally "gravel" you see the average at much much higher temps, above 1000 easy, but the spikes to only 1500-1600. Now when I was in Ireland on the tarmac I was seeing very radical temps on WRC's, upwards of 1500 just sitting at the control at the end of a stage. No on stage data.

Hope this helps in any way.

Here's a great thread on HT if you're interested in swapping to some better OEM brakes: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3044628


I think aftermarket brakes like Paulinho's are the way to go...But if you're on a tighter budget, there's a few great OEM options that will work quite well.

Paulinho's look good but this seems like it'd be even better for the Honda!

---

Grant Hughes

Yeah you're right. On road course, you use the brakes under heavy braking, but then they get lots of air in between uses. On a rally stage, you're using the brakes quite a bit, and not giving them a lot of time to cool down.

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Cosworth
As for the 15" wheels, I run 15's in my civic and never had problems. And I run these brakes. If you want I can make you some hats/brackets and all you have to do is buy rings and tweezers.

What calipers do you recommend?

I have EF/CRX knuckles, but I think they may be the 'EX' ones that are essentially the same rotors and mount placement as an EG Civic. I should measure and confirm.

I actually do have a set of NSX calipers, and modified rotors (Corrado?) from my road race project that I never finished. They are pretty good 2 pot, but heavy and bulky (hard to find wheels that can clear in 15", if memory serves).

From what I understand the, 11" Wilwood kit (bottom on this page) will fit a lot of 15" wheels:
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitListFront.aspx?make=Honda&model=CRX&year=1991&frttype=Disc&;

But the calipers look tiny compared to what you have.

Thanks for advice. I'd take you up on brackets, I suspect will be a better setup than the Wilwood kit.

Oh yeah. What about dust and corrosion on the race calipers, which if I recall don't typically have dust seals. Is mud / dir t/ water an issue?

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NoCoast
Paulinho's look good but this seems like it'd be even better for the Honda!

Only problem is, once the rotors get "warped," this happens:

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Quote
fiasco

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NoCoast
Paulinho's look good but this seems like it'd be even better for the Honda!

Only problem is, once the rotors get "warped," this happens:

Nyet tavarich! Ninochtka and Annoushka my darlings just said "No, Daddy this one!"




They said "he even has the nice hat!"

I'm so proud I am actually choked up..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I had a set built for the EG but haven't used them yet. They use a common sized roundie-round rotor so replacements are like $130 each. I'd pay extra for Hello Kitty calipers....

update - rotors are $115 each

http://apbrake.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/74826/1901723

update 2 - Caliper details

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/competition-brake-calipers/ap-racing-cp8350-caliper.html



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 04:58PM by urr.

I would also pay extra for Hello Kitty option.

Andrew: What wheels did you get to clear those monsters? That is awesome. I think that diameter is more of the bottleneck, might be able to go with a wider rotor, perhaps offset a bit in? I think I'm pretty much limited to 11" rotors.

What kind of brake bias adjusters do you guys use? Do you use the stock proportioning valves and then like a standard proportioning valve on the rears?

Like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8419?seid=srese1&gclid=COjuteHk1rwCFQNufgodK3EAkQ

Or do you replace the stock proportioning valve with something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-11179?seid=srese1&gclid=COK0lvLk1rwCFYhbfgodXWUA-A

I haven't mounted gravel wheels yet, only tarmac wheels, but most open/gn gravel brakes run a 295-300mm disks under a 15" wheel. My biggest concern is finding a wheel with proper offset/spoke clearance without increasing the scrub radius too much, causing crazy torque steer.

A picture of the brakes with the 17" wheels...tons of clearance.

I use a lever style bias adjuster mounted before the handbrake....I don't think there's a factory bias setting, just using a 1" brake master.

That would be a convenient place to put the adjuster.

The Hondas have a fixed proportioning valve mounted to the firewall (or in the ABS modulator if it has ABS still), if still using factor master cylinder / hydraulic setup.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 07:26PM by krisdahl.

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krisdahl
That would be a convenient place to put the adjuster.

The Hondas have a fixed proportioning valve mounted to the firewall (or in the ABS modulator if it has ABS still), if still using factor master cylinder / hydraulic setup.

I think I just ripped all that crap out and plumbed from the master to the wheels...

Realizing that plenty of folks get along just fine without, I always figured doing a dual master setup was a key part of a brake upgrade for a competition car - just as important as rotors with more heat capacity and better calipers.

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/proportioning-valves has always made me feel like "proprtioning valves" are a band-aid solution, and a bad one at that.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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urr
I had a set built for the EG but haven't used them yet. They use a common sized roundie-round rotor so replacements are like $130 each. I'd pay extra for Hello Kitty calipers....

update - rotors are $115 each

http://apbrake.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/74826/1901723

update 2 - Caliper details

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/competition-brake-calipers/ap-racing-cp8350-caliper.html

This is basically the setup that I have. Its a Late Model style caliper on a late model disc with an 8x7" mounting pattern except I use floating bobbins vs a rigid mount. Discs are cheap, and the pads too.


Those calipers do look big but they're the same size as mine. The problem is not the radial height, its the caliper width that can cause it to hit the spokes. But they fit fine under my 15" Compomotives and some Team Dynamics on a 35 offset.

The only difference is I used a 300mm x 20mm disc for gravel to save on weight. It also fits the typical late model 300x32mm disc but that hasn't been needed yet because the 20mm has been enough so far.

But this is all tip top stuff, and really not the necessary. The best cheap solution would be the S2000 or RSX disc and caliper. The discs are 300x25mm and do plenty well in the GrN Civic Type R's in Europe.

I forgot to say those are the same AP calipers that come in the Fiesta R2's.

As for the Hello Kitty stuff and that nyan cat thing... boy you guys worry me. I think we need an intervention.