K-sport hand brake issues

Nothing is 100% but I've used Girling, Tilton, Wilwood, Akebono and Nabco all without issue..

You're thinking too hard.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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Look at the valve seal. Imagine the threaded rod not adjusted right so when you have max pressure in rear lines from two masters, even realeased it has too much residual to fully release. Pushing pedal brake forces that forward...

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Grant Hughes

Yes mine is a girling style willwood. Grants image sounds like the issue. I dont believe it has any thing to do with the rod adjustment. I think its just a down fall of the way there plumbed in.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Quote
Reamer
Yes mine is a girling style willwood. Grants image sounds like the issue. I dont believe it has any thing to do with the rod adjustment. I think its just a down fall of the way there plumbed in.

line in--line out.Cannot be simpler..
Worked a million times plumbed same way

What could suddenly be wrong with the plumbing---that has worked well for decades?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Nothing is 100% but I've used Girling, Tilton, Wilwood, Akebono and Nabco all without issue..

You're thinking too hard.

Those have different designs between them. The reason no one uses the 50 year old girling design in any profeshunal racing is because what I keep saying the little piston bellow blocks the fluid. And its even more prone to failure on cheap manufactured units. That piston at the very front that seals off the feed hole is not set right. Either its "jamming" or whatever... that's why when they press the brake pedal, the 600+ psi push that piston/valve back and it works again because it opens the system. Use the handbrake and the piston jams again closing the system and causing drag.

Just put on the new style designs, its a simpler design and less parts. None of that 2 stage actuation crap, and its not that much more expensive than a cheapo willywood.

Quote
Cosworth

Quote
john vanlandingham
Nothing is 100% but I've used Girling, Tilton, Wilwood, Akebono and Nabco all without issue..

You're thinking too hard.

Those have different designs between them. The reason no one uses the 50 year old girling design in any profeshunal racing is because what I keep saying the little piston bellow blocks the fluid. And its even more prone to failure on cheap manufactured units. That piston at the very front that seals off the feed hole is not set right. Either its "jamming" or whatever... that's why when they press the brake pedal, the 600+ psi push that piston/valve back and it works again because it opens the system. Use the handbrake and the piston jams again closing the system and causing drag.

Just put on the new style designs, its a simpler design and less parts. None of that 2 stage actuation crap, and its not that much more expensive than a cheapo willywood.

Oh I agree with the ancient design problems, but I'm saying that its not a plumbing issue, its an inherent thing...
I prefer fluid in somewhere mid ways and out the end.. simple..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

If the k sport issue is the rod to long. Take the rod out shorten it and give your self some more adjustment.

When mine is full released the rod is stopped by the circlip in the cylinder. Thats why I say it must be willwoods issue.

If the foot brake is messing with the seal of the hand brake maybe its trying to invert it or hydrolocking and stopping it from fully releasing. even thow the handle is all the way back. The piston is not directly hooked to the rod in a willwood they are 2 pieces.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
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Quote
john vanlandingham
Nothing is 100% but I've used Girling, Tilton, Wilwood, Akebono and Nabco all without issue..

You're thinking too hard.

Or not hard enough! ha HA

I get what everyone is saying and I would have bought a new wilwood MC except for the fact that Jeff is saying he has one of the current wilwoods and his is working the same as mine……

Ksport won’t send me what their internals look like so I’m about to open it up myself and find out whats going on in there.

Paulinho, if you have part numbers that will solve my life I would be more than interested. Even if you just confirm the link I put up.

John, did you ever get my email about merkur brakes?

This does not drag in normal use only when done in that certain sequence. It prolly is just a flawed gerling cylinder design. but if your cheap run it. for how often its used in rally im sure it will do me fine for years. Now if i were a drift king I would switch to some thing better.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

I was about to install mine this weekend glad I read this.



I have one of this which says its a girling design, which is what i'm assuming everyone else has that isnt working properly.
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd.aspx?itemno=260-6087




I'm not sure what to replace it with though, what the 'new design' is. This from tilton is something similar, doesn't mention what type of design it is though.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-76-625/overview/

Aside from the fact that my log-in name is fubared....

I'm pretty sure the issue is that the pressure exerted on the back of the piston (inlet side of the handbrake master) from the foot brake master, is what is causing the rear brakes to drag. We had a similar incident at ESPR last year.

A little digging around in industrial hydraulics found that you can source a ball style shuttle valve for around $30 bucks.

http://www.go2hydraulics.com/docs/mfr/vickers/vickers-dirctional-control-valves.pdf#page=24
http://www.go2hydraulics.com/product/10043F/direct-acting-shuttle-valves-dsv.html

If you're really cheap, you can pick up this one:
http://www.hydraforce.com/Directnl/Dir-pdf/4-260-1.pdf
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Check-Lock-Valves/SAE-6-SHUTTLE-VALVE-9-6361.axd#tab1

Someone buy one and try it, so I can convince Kevin to put one in ours.

Quote
Reamer
If the k sport issue is the rod to long. Take the rod out shorten it and give your self some more adjustment.

When mine is full released the rod is stopped by the circlip in the cylinder. Thats why I say it must be willwoods issue.

If the foot brake is messing with the seal of the hand brake maybe its trying to invert it or hydrolocking and stopping it from fully releasing. even thow the handle is all the way back. The piston is not directly hooked to the rod in a willwood they are 2 pieces.

If the rod is hanging lose then its not that. Its the 2 piece piston, that at the very tip that piston/valve that shuts off the feed port is probably nor working correctly.

Now the design is from the early 60's but it doesn't mean it wont work well, situation is theres more chances of problems and when things arent machined properly and made cheaply in massive batches with low QC then you have these situations.

I wouldn't recommend adding other gizmos to the line. Its nothing but bandaids that will only mask the original issues. Plus its one more thing to go wrong. WRC cars don't have them, then you don't need them either.

Steve the willwood I have is the one you have posted. I would still run this one. As often as this issue creeps up in real life it isnt worth the added valve. I agree with Cosworth if wrc doesnt need it then we shouldnt. Like i said if I were a drift king I would not run this set up.

Matt is saying the same as what im trying to say. And a quick tap of the foot brake and this issue goes away. Not a 600 pound push just a quick release of pressure type push. I really dont think its a bad part issue this is the 3rd hand brake ive made and installed 2 with the willwood and 1 I made from a Nissan 5/8 clutch slave. All of them did this. All 60's technology gerling style.

I think the 2 piece piston is working correctly its just not designed to see pressure from the feed side that the foot brake is adding. adding a shuttle valve would probably fix this but not sure its worth the extra piping for the slim few times this happens.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer
Yes mine is a girling style willwood. Grants image sounds like the issue. I dont believe it has any thing to do with the rod adjustment. I think its just a down fall of the way there plumbed in.

I have a Girling style Wilwood (yeah, I plumbed it backwards when I installed it, too... silly design, but it was $25 at Summit) and have no hangup issues at all. I frequently apply the handbrake with the footbrake in all kinds of orders and never have an issue.

I DO however get the typical low pedal after using the handbrake - because the shim fit is on the loose side. I'm okay with that.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2014 04:51PM by Pete.

I know this thread is a bit dated but my teammate had the exact same issue with his. Final solution was to install a Tilton unit. Why both the foot and hand brake were being used at the same time I still do not know.