Dealing with the restrictor rule

I did find 2 of them a few years ago - $4k for both - never put on a car, was a donation to a school or some such thing - didn't buy them, I was still using $250 K24's at the time and the bill seemed oh so very high...

So, unless you are buying and can throw in a spare or two (at something like $15k ea) - I'll just brake harder and later...

Quote
NoCoast
That settles it. Get a TR30R.

Get three, one for the car, one for spares, and one to shine up and use as a paperweight for the autograph signing table.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

http://www.supraforums.com.au/forum/topic/75255-garrett-racing-tr30r-turbo/
http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/clas/index.php?ct=fsrp&md=details&id=75341



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2014 01:05PM by aj_johnson.

Mr. Bares,

thanks for sharing those dyno plots between the GT2871R v. GTX2862. With the one cutting off early, I'm trying to picture the rest of the map. Does it essentially equal the 71 from 4000rpm and higher? I'm ASSuming that at 4k the restrictor does its thing and flat out limits power potential.

I also have a company to bug about modifying turbos, and even possibly making one of these bolt up to my factory manifold, saving time/money, and just keeping it simple.

interested in anything you can share, even just your observations and opinions.

Note that we artificially reduced boost at 6k rpm to see what would happen, so you can assume the hp would have remained flat, riding what the restrictor would allow.

On another note - a certain someone started talking about Ford turbo's - so did some research into it and found the attached comparison.

What I don't know, is what the EM configuration would look like - and it seems that they all come with internal wastegates, which typically means some crazy configuration on the down pipe...

What I'd love to do is to have the hot side on dual v-bands - what are the possibilities for hotside?

Your chart has errors...many
And the downpipe is straight 3" direct to turbo...studs are spaced way wide.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

thanks John - are the errors specific to the Ford turbo's?

For reference, I got the info from here:

Turbine Specs

TB0384 Compressor

TB0345

TB0361

TB0367

I strongly suggest http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/compressor.php

And maybe confirm with the "applicaciones" .

This joint, even if they are Spanish, they are "Arthur-ized" Garrett distributor and I have double check dimensions against their numbers.

Turbo International well i paid good money for 3-4 Compressor wheels for my fave TB0340 and they didn't match what I had or the number of blades, and they stonewalled me---it WAS several years but they were in the original box and receipt was in hand and they acknowledged the order etc, but so solly round eye.

Trust Turbomasters...
Very interesting that the following cars all use the same PN for the turbine wheel:
1.6 Escort XR2
Volvo 2.1 8v B21
Volvo 2.3 8v B23
Volvo 2.0 16v B204
Lancia Delta Intergrale 8v*
Lancia Delta Intergrale 16v*
Lancia Deltona Evo 16v*
Fiat Uno Turbo*
Dodge Turbo III Spirit Lotus head*
Ford Sierra Cosworth 3 door*
Ford Sapphire Cosworth 4x4*
Ford Escort Cosworth **
Lotus Turbo Espirit*
Tom Walkinshaw Racing Jaguar V12 Le Mans (2 of them)*

A reasonable person looking at the range of cars, and there are more---and thinking about the different design teams and a spread of 20 years nearly from the Volvos to the Escort Cosworths---a reasonable person might conclude that that specific turbine wheel is good enough

* with the bitching turbine housing in a/r .48
** with bitchin turbine housing in a/r .63

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ok - there may have been a few tweaks needed but here are the comparo's again - with a bonus of the Ford turbo part numbers all the cool kids are using...

It would seem that the TB0384, TB0344 and TB0322 use the same turbine and compressor wheels - must be the housings is different?

So, on these Ford toorbinas - can you get a v-band hot side? Both for EM and DP?

Quote
vbares
So, on these Ford toorbinas - can you get a v-band hot side? Both for EM and DP?

Yeah but they're spensive as hell. Ford would mill flat the cone part and bolt on a stub with half the V band thing...
But V bands are all about quick change..
You have a spare to bang in at service? its just three big M10 nuts, real quick.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
vbares
Note that we artificially reduced boost at 6k rpm to see what would happen, so you can assume the hp would have remained flat, riding what the restrictor would allow.

interesting. I was curious about that drop at 6K. Did you reduce boost just a little, or reduce it enough to drop below the max air flow the restrictor would allow?

But, I also was expecting when I put a restrictor on, I was going to have to start reducing wastgate duty cycle once I passed the point of max restrictor flow. Otherwise, in my mind, the shaft speed will continue to increase but not increasing flow, and likely generating extra heat for nothing.

I have yet to tune with a restrictor, so it's all uncharted territory for me. Without a way to measure airflow, and not knowing how to do the math, I planned to "find" the point where the restrictor is maxed, and run the turbo just hard enough to stay at that Max Flow Rate throughout the RPMs.

^^^is that not the proper way, is my theory based completely on assumptions all wrong?

Quote
Paddy1337
was curious about that drop at 6K. Did you reduce boost just a little, or reduce it enough to drop below the max air flow the restrictor would allow?

I don't specifically recall what we lowered the boost to - on the GTX2863R we reduced peak boost from 28psi to 26psi and made the same torque and power. So yes, more boost without flow capabilities does not = mo powah

Quote
John Vanlandingham
You have a spare to bang in at service? its just three big M10 nuts, real quick.

2 motivators to using the TB0384
a) Looks like it has closer measurements to what the 'special' turbos have running 34mm chokes
b) It should cost about 1/2 of what a GTX2860R (non-rally) would cost - allowing me to have a spare. And its rebuildable.

My current KKK hotside has 4 bolts - and it takes a 1/2hr to get them off when cold due to the tight quarters.

If you see 3 bolts being accessible - then agreed no need to get the fancy v-band. Although, it shouldn't be a big deal to weld one onto a flange...perhaps the bigger pain is the turbo to manifold nuts?

Quesitons:
1) Are these TB0384's typically known as T34's w/.48 housing?
2) Do you have any of these flanges as a starting point for a DP?
3) Is the hotside to EM known as a T3 flange?

I've not found a glut of these turbos - there are a few around - but they still seem a bit pricey for used ones - I'd expect to pay around $300, plus another bit for a rebuild - am I looking in the wrong places?

John I'll call to see what your inventory looks like

Quote
vbares

Quote
Paddy1337
was curious about that drop at 6K. Did you reduce boost just a little, or reduce it enough to drop below the max air flow the restrictor would allow?

I don't specifically recall what we lowered the boost to - on the GTX2863R we reduced peak boost from 28psi to 26psi and made the same torque and power. So yes, more boost without flow capabilities does not = mo powah

Quote
John Vanlandingham
You have a spare to bang in at service? its just three big M10 nuts, real quick.

2 motivators to using the TB0384
a) Looks like it has closer measurements to what the 'special' turbos have running 34mm chokes
b) It should cost about 1/2 of what a GTX2860R (non-rally) would cost - allowing me to have a spare. And its rebuildable.

My current KKK hotside has 4 bolts - and it takes a 1/2hr to get them off when cold due to the tight quarters.

If you see 3 bolts being accessible - then agreed no need to get the fancy v-band. Although, it shouldn't be a big deal to weld one onto a flange...perhaps the bigger pain is the turbo to manifold nuts?

Quesitons:
1) Are these TB0384's typically known as T34's w/.48 housing?
2) Do you have any of these flanges as a starting point for a DP?
3) Is the hotside to EM known as a T3 flange?

I've not found a glut of these turbos - there are a few around - but they still seem a bit pricey for used ones - I'd expect to pay around $300, plus another bit for a rebuild - am I looking in the wrong places?

John I'll call to see what your inventory looks like

We made a short little stub for Kevin Hawkinsons Volvo to do the V band, so it can be done..

Then you can make up some wood templates to work out how to slot 3 of the 4 bolts (these are normal T3 rectangular flange) One bolt is a straight shot suo what you do is 3 studs and the flange is slotted for those, and one BOLT which you kinda hang the turbo on.. When its time to swap you fish around with a crows-foot and back off a few turns the three 14 or 15mm reduced hex nuts, then you pull the one bolt and slide the turbo off the
3 studs..

As for inventory the main this is I have the one all rebuilt and already modded for a nice restrictor. I can certainly copy that restrictor and mod one more compressor housing so you have a complete unit spare. These are 4x4 Cossie units.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
vbares
My current KKK hotside has 4 bolts - and it takes a 1/2hr to get them off when cold due to the tight quarters.

If you see 3 bolts being accessible - then agreed no need to get the fancy v-band. Although, it shouldn't be a big deal to weld one onto a flange...perhaps the bigger pain is the turbo to manifold nuts?

First, thanks for the info on the graphs, again.

Second. I just want to whisper vband back into your mind. Money is obviously a deciding factor, but the company Tial (even a made in USA company I believe) makes vband turbine housings that are the beez-neez. The exact metal composition is unobtanium (must sign a non-disclosure agreement if made privy to the exact makeup), but it has amazing properties and will outlive anything else on the car. They also have very, very well designed a/r's, and have been shown to spool faster than even twinscroll T3 setups on the same turbo.

All I'm attempting to say, is don't completely rule it out. The only benefit isn't just ease of install.

-Tim