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Very enlightening interview with a friend from Norway on analytical driving---and learning.

Posted by john vanlandingham 
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Mike Ball
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Robert Culbertson
Good read. Also some good info on the forum. It's amazing how many people (me included at times) end up sideways out of corners.
Seems a lot of people do the exact opposite of this:






Interesting...

Can't say I've ever heard the term "nose end first".

I am interested in this info and will watch this thread.....yes sir I will....
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NoCoast
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dreamsofjvl
Also Grant, looks like that thread was removed. Methinks a strategy to earn money has been implemented, wouldn't want all that valuable info out there floating around for free! winking smiley

Yeah, that's why I was hunting for an archived version. Cached pages just aren't what they used to be anymore I guess. It used to be simple to find a cached version of just about every site.



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dreamsofjvl
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NoCoast
Yeah, that's why I was hunting for an archived version. Cached pages just aren't what they used to be anymore I guess. It used to be simple to find a cached version of just about every site.

I always wondered what was going on in that regard, I've been having a HELL of a time finding cached pages. Terabytes of valuable information and thought lost to the digital friggin winds sad smiley
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john vanlandingham
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What are you mooks complaining about?

Can't find the original thread on where? The Finn Teemu's site? What "original" what?

No comments on what's presented--which is several layers of interesting?



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dreamsofjvl
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Quote
john vanlandingham
No comments on what's presented--which is several layers of interesting?

I do find it interesting that he thinks the pinnacle of a rallycar is a Saab 96. It'd be fun to see someone build one into a more modern spec and have some fun in 2wd in North America for shits and giggles.

As for what we are looking for, there was a thread on motorsportsforums.com that had a lot of the information Ole from Norway was talking about. It appears to have been removed, as you can find the URL to it, but it goes to a "this page is no longer available" page.

Clearly Ole has found a money maker, I don't blame him, just sucks when something that was once public and free goes behind the closed doors for the sake of making a buck.
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john vanlandingham
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Quote
dreamsofjvl
Quote
john vanlandingham
No comments on what's presented--which is several layers of interesting?

I do find it interesting that he thinks the pinnacle of a rallycar is a Saab 96. It'd be fun to see someone build one into a more modern spec and have some fun in 2wd in North America for shits and giggles.

As for what we are looking for, there was a thread on motorsportsforums.com that had a lot of the information Ole from Norway was talking about. It appears to have been removed, as you can find the URL to it, but it goes to a "this page is no longer available" page.

Clearly Ole has found a money maker, I don't blame him, just sucks when something that was once public and free goes behind the closed doors for the sake of making a buck.


Yeah everybody else in the rally world just gives all the stuff away..I know i do and so do all the other suppliers and mechanics and constructors and even the guy that owns this site...

And the thing is a lot of people giving away all their time want at least some credit, some acknowledgement and some respect..

Interesting that you alone figured out that all this is a money making scheme for a Norwegian Mastermind...the dirty bastid!

Oh speaking of showing a little respect for those giving things away, the owner of this forum was quite enthusiastic when we formed it about 12 feet over that way about the idea that we should all have our real names and a real location either in the "screen name" sidebar thing or in a signature below as a absolute minimum requirement. We all thought that the "normal" forum thing of stupid and meaningless "CB handle" type names fostered a certain stupidity and aggressiveness on the one hand and was flat silly on the other based on one simple idea: in the real world, would you continue a dialog over days or longer with a person who always hid under a bucket?

So:

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RALLY ANARCHY RULES - READ THIS FIRST (that means you, newb)
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WELCOME TO RALLY ANARCHY!

This site has been created with the goal of creating a proper rally BBS for the North American scene, for the people who love the sport and hobby. It's based on the idea of Sailing Anarchy, check it out if you want a sample.

And by proper, I mean highly improper. Most things that will get censored on other Forums is fair game here. Proceed at your own risk. Note that the webmaster is not responsible for the views or opinions posted on this Forum, in a very real and legally binding sense.

That's not to say there aren't any rules here. On the contrary, one sure fire way to get booted is to act consistently stupid or take personal attacks too far. Another is to whine or bullshit incessantly without contributing either knowledge or humour to the discussion. Any malicious quoting out of context to seriously deceive (rather than just poke some fun and obviously josh around) is grounds for ass kicking. Ditto on posts complaining about spelling or grammatical errors. If you are convicted by a jury of your peers, you may be sent to the Sin Bin for detention. And of course, posting anything illegal is grounds for immediate removal and ban-hammering.

Here's an example of rules you won't see here:

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"I figure that hosting a forum is a lot like inviting a diverse group of adults to your living room for a discussion that can edify anyone who cares to listen and respectfully participate. Were it my living room and a handful of guests insisted on ignoring common sense rules of decorum by interrupting discussions with personal attacks, derailing trains of thought to further some unrelated agenda, consistently abused their participation privilege by carrying on one's business on the premises or uttered anything that might make a libel attorney salivate then I'd certainly never invite them back."

That's fine and dandy, but we need a place to talk openly, especially if it's in a yakking-around-the-garage after dropping-in-an-engine kind of friendly banter. Think of Rally Anarchy as the local clubhouse you probably have never had. Swearing is OK, but don't go overboard.

One of the things you won't find here is 834,234 different forums for every different country, region, state, province, city, neighborhood, gender, shoe size, sexual preference or hair colour. If you've got something to say, why don't you say it to the whole class, hmmmm?

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The price of having a forum to say whatever you want* is that you have to stand by what you say. You don't get to be a brave internet hero, while hiding behind your keyboard.

That way we know if you're some crusty retired old guy, or a clueless kid having wet car-dreams, and can make fun of you accordingly. To edit your profile, sign in and click here:Go to the Control Center



OK? Either the sidebar or the signature..
The system operates on trust and as we have seen there are a few very untrustworthy people and the want to hide.



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john vanlandingham
The system operates on trust and as we have seen there are a few very untrustworthy people and the want to hide.

Meh. There are also untrustworthy people who don't bother to hide their names.
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john vanlandingham
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Not Trolling
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john vanlandingham
The system operates on trust and as we have seen there are a few very untrustworthy people and the want to hide.

Meh. There are also untrustworthy people who don't bother to hide their names.

Yep.

And that's not the point. You know it and you are--as all too frequently, indeed most of the time---trolling.



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NONACK
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I've never heard it called "nose end first" but anyone who hasn't heard some variation of "rotate early but turn late" at their local rallyX has been talking to the wrong guys.
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northcoast
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Quote
john vanlandingham

Yeah everybody else in the rally world just gives all the stuff away..I know i do

Sweet... I need new suspension John. My current excuse for suspension is holding me baaack.

Now back to Ole's technique. Bad translation of a post copied from norsk-rally.com.

To B:
Driving technique Nose End First apply regardless of the drive wheels, then you always have driving wheels pointing in the desired direction of movement from the point where you start the exit.

Drivers talk about running wide and narrow, without them really have much understanding of what kind of broad, kind narrow drive which in turn results on the stopwatch. This is especially true in the rear wheel.

The rear wheels will propel you forward in the direction you ska, from the earliest point possible in turn. It provides the best times. That you have to control the angle of attack, speed and line so that you achieve it.
By having too much momentum late in the curve, in combination with other factors, will have to use the drive wheels to keep you on the road in the end, ie the angle of the car in the end is not parallel with the direction you should run ( still skidding, with "wide" output), and the higher risk and worse times.

In national (group H) in Norway so the driving style has been very "trillete", meaning that many people choose to virtually push through much of the turn, only to give in gradually as they approach the end. Soren Snartemo is a typical run with this style.
This is faster than to drift in output (with excessive angle), and fewer unwanted loss, but it would run even faster if you ran "broader" earlier in the turn, to give even greater impetus in the end.
Latvala in Escort is a very good example of such a driving style.

and a second post talking about a local kid he is working with

To create this thread to tell us about commitment we make with Sindre Furuseth, because it is so different from the many others are doing, and can therefore inspire and motivate.

There is of course a full opportunity to ask questions if you have any questions, we will answer to the best ability.

First, I can tell about the people involved, and why they are there:

1) Sindre Furuseth - driver
Why he is involved should give themselves, but I can explain the little more about who he is:
Sindre Furuseth staying in Råholt, is 21 years old and have been doing motorsport since he was quite small. Environmentally damaged by his father, rally driver Vidar Furuseth as flipping. is known to run wide with yellow Turbo Volvo.
Sindre started with karting, proceeded to rallycross, put on with dad as codriver in rally has run youth class in the rally, and is now running in NM 2WD, with a Fiesta ST (N7).

2) Olav Bodilsen - trainer
Olav is Sindres head coach in terms of driving technique. I've written a bit about him on the forum here earlier. Having been inspired by running phantom Stein Svendsen, who had a very theoretical approach to the subject, has Bodilsen spent 35+ years in-depth study in driving technique, and "professor" in driving techniques "Nose End First", which in short is so Loeb ran, and so Ogier partially running today.

3) Thomas Myhre Hansen - chief mechanic
Thomas is even Norgesmester in rallies, and have fought and won against, among others, PG Andersson and Jonas Kruse.
Thomas was tapping into when the family Furuseth realized that they were not capable to operate the car well enough yourself, and therefore needed assistance.
Thomas is an extreme pedant, and this means that we manage to keep technical trouble to a minimum, and it also allows Sindre running out with freshly washed car after each service.
Thomas had really laid up his career when he met Olav Bodilsen. They went around the rally together for a year, and Thomas picked up more and more of Nose End First theory, and eventually had to get tested in practice. Come Backed ended with a championship gold.

4) Øyvind Rødsjø Beckstrøm - codriver
Øyvind has been co Vidar Furuseth for many years, and now sits on the Sindre. An experienced guy who has a new glow of this initiative.

5) Ole-Martin Lundefaret (me) - team manager and driving coach
I have different experiences from rallying. Both bad (my own driving and operation of rally car) and good (got a ride with a lot of good, ink Loeb, and its jurnalist been a part of a lot of fun). I have pondered very over what is the secret behind it to drive fast in the rally, and no (inc world champions) have been able to answer that until I met Bodilsen. He has spent more than four years to teach me in Nose End First, so in addition to being team manager, I also work as a driving coach for Sindre. I also created an educational program around this driving style.

What then is so kinda special about us?

The most unique aspect of how we run rally efforts around Sindre is the theoretical approach spring, as matter of course is based on the background of Olav Bodilsen knowledge, as we round also begins to get a little crazy on.
With this in mind we will get some choices that others may seem to be strange:
1) We run only with used tires
2) We drive with a car that has a very difficult setup (very under controlled)
3) And we train rallies in many other ways than sitting in rally car on a testvei.

Used tires - why?
a) We are of the opinion that it is difficult to train during a race if one gets caught up in results.
b) We have ambitions that Sindre be World Cup lead. The stages in the World Cup are often so long that the grip is changing very way. Then you have to learn how to make grip, by manipulating the weight of the car. This teaches you best if you have some bad grip, ie used tires.
c) We have a limited budget, then used tires are MUCH cheaper winking smiley

Difficult layout - why?
a) Since setting up the car so you can affect the maximum theoretical choice. If you rely on to make a car easily in the ass (overridden) to get around the corners, so you give away grip, ie the maximum grip / speed you can have in a turn, becomes lower.
Citroën especially, but also Volkswagen has built cars for this principle, and therefore must be run with the front versus rear, and where one must create attach themselves.
b) By Sindre must create attach themselves and work to get the car to steer, so he learns how he can use the tools even work with the car while driving.

Theoretical approach - how?
a) We use A LOT of time talking rally theory. Da Nose End First technique often is completely inverted than one might think, so it requires some of the individual to understand it completely. Therefore, we talk so much about it.
b) We analyze a lot. Whether on study tours when we're looking at race or matter of course on youtube etc. Here you can see a lot both from filming outside and within.
c) We have created a special vocabulary that makes us keep ourselves most away from words and phrases that can not be quantified, such as "rhythm", "flow" etc. It is a good word to describe the feeling, but how coach you to get better flow or rhythm?

Anderledes Training - Why?
a) To drive rally car is expensive, and to drive rally car on rallyvei is expensive. It is one of the reasons why we choose other training methods.
b) The driving a rally car is often not the most effective if one is to exercise at a special thing.

Different training - how?
a) We are training course and rally cars on test roads, but we trey also rally cars in rallycross Courts, and other atypical spaces.
b) In such places, we set up often cones, so we get trained on one particular thing we are working on.
c) We train on the road with regular car (far within the speed limit!), by running Nose End First track, so we have programmed into it. On the way we train also something we call micro acceleration.
d) We train with a Polaris UTV, which is a surprisingly good training tool, and that is incredibly inexpensive to operate.
e) Also we train theory in different ways.

How are you?
We started this in earnest from 01.01.2014. And we can say, even in Jante Norway, that progress has represented very good. We are still far from being world champions, but that said, the progress is very good. Although we were not driving for results, we located on the third in the Championship, and is constantly up and fighter with R2 guys Røkland and Aasen in the lead. And with a car unless horses, more weight, even more worn tires So entirely on snout it can certainly not be.

Inspire and motivate - how?
Because of a limited budget, so we must think differently. And it turns out that one can achieve results without necessarily sit on the entire cash reserves to Norges Bank. That means whether you are rally dad, club resource, leads, co, or avid fan, so you might here can pick up some tips regarding how to become better in the rally in a cost effective manner.

This loooong record is an intro-mail. The idea is that those who are interested can ask questions, which I / we shall try to answer as good as possible.

I will also add more posts about specific things we either work with, worked with, or will be working with.

Hope this can be of interest, and look forward to getting substantive and constructive posts to keep this thread started. Run debate!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 11:20AM by northcoast.
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Keith Morison
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Trust a Mor(r)ison to bring some actual meat to the conversation. smileys with beer

I was really, REALLY, struggling to find anything beyond superficially interesting in the article in the first post. (let alone 'layers of interesting.') Observe the best at what they do, assess, think, do, reflect, think some more, do some more, assess some more...

The clear message from what Kevin posted is that the 'fun' path, with the ass end WAY out as is seen in 'the clip' isn't the fastest or safest path... something we all knew anyway.
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LexusFman
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I don't doubt this guy at all. Homie even admits his theories and techniques are based on the breakthroughs of the 1970's and 1980's. I think the point is that modern rally drivers, apparently even at the top level, be slackin, and need to start training and acting more like athletes and less like engineers, and the whole sage jedi thing is just a way to get people on board. And plus, whats wrong with this dude tryina make some money? Ive been bustin my ass for what seems like ages and if I found an easy way out that dosent involve screwing people over I'd take it.
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john vanlandingham
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LexusFman
I don't doubt this guy at all. Homie even admits his theories and techniques are based on the breakthroughs of the 1970's and 1980's. I think the point is that modern rally drivers, apparently even at the top level, be slackin, and need to start training and acting more like athletes and less like engineers, and the whole sage jedi thing is just a way to get people on board. And plus, whats wrong with this dude tryina make some money? Ive been bustin my ass for what seems like ages and if I found an easy way out that dosent involve screwing people over I'd take it.

Yeah--good observation..and ya know sumpin? I don't see WRC winners thanking anybody here from the podium for their advice and thoughts on driving techniques---especially not those who, once again, predictably, don't just not quite get the point but totally 180 off miss the point.

Here's the thing for you: this guy, unlike some of the more vocal ex-spurts here knows that lots of the "approach" to rally can be gained and incorporated in other arenas and recommends lots of other activities (we've spoken and agree downhill ski and moto-cross are 2 areas particularly good at supplying the chance for LOTS of inexpensive training--and we both agree that the only drawback to both is there is a need for a certain level of skill before the useful lessons are reached---and with MX the additional drawback of the near certainty of a certain amount of injuries, BUT that the lesson to be learned are invaluable---especially considering the ease of doing those and the costs versus I modern rally car practice time.)...So have you given any thought to bikes?

Where are you now and what are you doing?



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DanielSL
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Nose End First, huh? Me - thinks this guy has gotten it right...
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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DanielSL
Nose End First, huh? Me - thinks this guy has gotten it right...

OK you got it..Glad to see you picked that up...Now you should see the problem as THAT relates to playing grass-o-crossen...The average speed is so low that you can't really drive every corner like that..



John Vanlandingham
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