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Found a needle in the VW Haystack

Posted by ElectroTech 
Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 03:13PM
The real bottleneck is now the throttle body so, no it will not make 10 more hp regardless of the fuel.

Tuned for durability and low maintenance and safety. 100-octane. 7300rpm redline. No need to be on the knife edge.

Was tuned by one of the best in the business and never seen another build or tune near that output without metric cubes of dollars and high-rpm.



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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 03:22PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
The real bottleneck is now the throttle body so, no it will not make 10 more hp regardless of the fuel.

Tuned for durability and low maintenance and safety. 100-octane. 7300rpm redline. No need to be on the knife edge.

Was tuned by one of the best in the business and never seen another build or tune near that output without metric cubes of dollars and high-rpm.

Franz? Franz is the-fuckin'-man. Would like to meet him some day. (...and raid his wiring supplies for some of those nice Raychem heat shrink elbows and Deutsch connectors when he's not looking!)
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 04:23PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Good grief, why have you started trolling so much?
We all play this game, be it fisherman or fish? LOL this is nothing, more of a broad mix of people on here.



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hoche
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 05:39PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
hoche
Methanol is mostly fine as long as you keep it flowing through the system. If you let alcohol-infused gas sit for any length of time, all kinds of weird (and bad) things happen. Oh, and try not to use alcohol-laden fuel on really hot days.

Sorry I meant so say ethanol, and up here in the great white north they tend to just blend more of it in to call it Plus and Premium.

I shoulda said ethanol but they both do more or less the same thing - attack the aluminum oxide layer and thus cause corrosion of aluminum directly, and then there's a peculiar kind of bacteria that doesn't mind petrol but loves alcohol and water and generates vinegar from it which causes other corrosion problems. Also, they're hydroscopic so they carry water through the system and cause iron things to runs (but I'm not sure that's all that bad because it seems to me that otherwise the water would just collect in the tank). It's all quite fascinating and not really a problem if you keep things circulating.

They both have a lower boiling point, sufficiently lower that on hot days the fuel can get hot enough to have the alcohol vaporize, which can make the OEM fuel pump start to cavitate, which makes it heat up, which heats up the fuel, which makes more boil, which makes it start to cavitate more, which...you can see where this is leading. Or unleading if you prefer.


And in other news, it seems like everyone's gotten peevish lately.



Self-righteous douche canoe
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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 07:16PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
Josh Wimpey
VWMS managed 220hp with stock bore & stroke geometry and without ITBs using the 52mm runner intake manifold from the ABF 16v.

limk? dyno charts.? sources?







Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 07:21PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
because that conflicts with what the man who for the longest time--thru the 1990s did their rally engine development...

You want his phone number so you can correct him?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Speaking of which, the number---from 20 years ago---for Gunnar Forssberg was
+46 08 550 65700
EDIT:

FORSSBERGS MASKINSERVICE
[Person verksam i bolaget: <a href='/foretag/forssbergs-maskinservice/personer'>
Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg</a>] Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg
Orgnr. 450613-XXXX


BADVÄGEN 29
telefon: 08-55011153


I don't know if he speaks English, never asked....He I believe is retired officially now--he was older then so I don't his English is very "fluent"....but his tuning was eloquent..


There's a chance he pre-dates the tall block 2.0 16v engine work? Unless he was doing work for Harri Jokki in the early to mid '90s?


This is who I'd contact:

Heinz Lehmann
Lehmann Motoren-Technik AG
Schliessa 8 9495 Triesen
+423 392 3440





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 01:18AM
Quote
Chris Eyre
Quote
john vanlandingham
because that conflicts with what the man who for the longest time--thru the 1990s did their rally engine development...

You want his phone number so you can correct him?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Speaking of which, the number---from 20 years ago---for Gunnar Forssberg was
+46 08 550 65700
EDIT:

FORSSBERGS MASKINSERVICE
[Person verksam i bolaget: <a href='/foretag/forssbergs-maskinservice/personer'>
Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg</a>] Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg
Orgnr. 450613-XXXX


BADVÄGEN 29
telefon: 08-55011153


I don't know if he speaks English, never asked....He I believe is retired officially now--he was older then so I don't his English is very "fluent"....but his tuning was eloquent..


There's a chance he pre-dates the tall block 2.0 16v engine work? Unless he was doing work for Harri Jokki in the early to mid '90s?


This is who I'd contact:

Heinz Lehmann
Lehmann Motoren-Technik AG
Schliessa 8 9495 Triesen
+423 392 3440

I was in contact during 93-94 and then busy till I was back in Seattle in 00.. I called just to say Hi! at some point...so as of 02 he was still doing VW stuff... I trust the Swedes over any German anytime.. Long record of VW, and Opel farming their rally engine development to Sweden...VW to Forssberg, Opel to Janne Carneborn (who is actually Norwegian but has been in Sweden since time began---I knew of them as early as 1972, used thenm for cylinder boring) in Nacka at Enem...Madza back in the days of MRT Europe in Bryssel farmed rally engine development to Enem, the lead guy being an the guy who in '72 told me to go to them when he was working at Team Eneqvist, my local Husqvarna shop, his name was Ragnar ''Ragge'' Moberg..

Sorry but prior to VW's current program, the Germans are too rigid and class bound to make good rally engines....it's ''Herr Dr Finkelbaum has designed it, who are YOU to say how it can be better? ''
I said that--and a bit more on some furrin forum where there were a couple of ex-WRC drivers, Pentti Arikala and Warmbold son, adn there is a small but not entirely insignificant chance that they, especially Arikala might know something a bit more than ANY of us..he quoted the etire spiel and said ''Perfect---exactly!''
Even the Finns go to Sweden for the best developed motors....

For example some guy named Grönholm for work on that rallycross car Frod Siesta or whatever it was..
Here os some interesting reading:
http://www.stahlmotor.se/Teknik/Hastkrafter/hastkrafter.html



There's just one thing I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me here a little..

It is claimed ITB or something similar is "not needed" and some big HP is available using stock whatever manifold..

Why then on MkIII cars did VW ---and everybody else---switch to ITB the instant it was allowed:


And why do ALL these dinosaur Swedes---people paid by factories to do rally engine R&D for decades---as well as developent work/builds for ordinary humans---always any time rules permit--go carbs or ITBs..

Are they all fools? Or cynics and think "we" all are?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 07:09AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
Chris Eyre
Quote
john vanlandingham
because that conflicts with what the man who for the longest time--thru the 1990s did their rally engine development...

You want his phone number so you can correct him?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Speaking of which, the number---from 20 years ago---for Gunnar Forssberg was
+46 08 550 65700
EDIT:

FORSSBERGS MASKINSERVICE
[Person verksam i bolaget: <a href='/foretag/forssbergs-maskinservice/personer'>
Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg</a>] Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg
Orgnr. 450613-XXXX


BADVÄGEN 29
telefon: 08-55011153


I don't know if he speaks English, never asked....He I believe is retired officially now--he was older then so I don't his English is very "fluent"....but his tuning was eloquent..


There's a chance he pre-dates the tall block 2.0 16v engine work? Unless he was doing work for Harri Jokki in the early to mid '90s?


This is who I'd contact:

Heinz Lehmann
Lehmann Motoren-Technik AG
Schliessa 8 9495 Triesen
+423 392 3440

I was in contact during 93-94 and then busy till I was back in Seattle in 00.. I called just to say Hi! at some point...so as of 02 he was still doing VW stuff... I trust the Swedes over any German anytime.. Long record of VW, and Opel farming their rally engine development to Sweden...VW to Forssberg, Opel to Janne Carneborn (who is actually Norwegian but has been in Sweden since time began---I knew of them as early as 1972, used thenm for cylinder boring) in Nacka at Enem...Madza back in the days of MRT Europe in Bryssel farmed rally engine development to Enem, the lead guy being an the guy who in '72 told me to go to them when he was working at Team Eneqvist, my local Husqvarna shop, his name was Ragnar ''Ragge'' Moberg..

Sorry but prior to VW's current program, the Germans are too rigid and class bound to make good rally engines....it's ''Herr Dr Finkelbaum has designed it, who are YOU to say how it can be better? ''
I said that--and a bit more on some furrin forum where there were a couple of ex-WRC drivers, Pentti Arikala and Warmbold son, adn there is a small but not entirely insignificant chance that they, especially Arikala might know something a bit more than ANY of us..he quoted the etire spiel and said ''Perfect---exactly!''
Even the Finns go to Sweden for the best developed motors....

For example some guy named Grönholm for work on that rallycross car Frod Siesta or whatever it was..
Here os some interesting reading:
http://www.stahlmotor.se/Teknik/Hastkrafter/hastkrafter.html



There's just one thing I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me here a little..

It is claimed ITB or something similar is "not needed" and some big HP is available using stock whatever manifold..

Why then on MkIII cars did VW ---and everybody else---switch to ITB the instant it was allowed:


And why do ALL these dinosaur Swedes---people paid by factories to do rally engine R&D for decades---as well as developent work/builds for ordinary humans---always any time rules permit--go carbs or ITBs..

Are they all fools? Or cynics and think "we" all are?

My plans have not changed.....still waiting for someone to chime in on the original question. I'm contemplating using a set of Honda CBR1100XX throttle bodies, this would require building a custom manifold, just a little bit trickier on the 16V because of the injector bosses. The other issue is that most of these are street driven so the rubber connection to the manifold is fine, hate to have a hard landing and have your throttles pop off......I guess it would show your gumption, shut it down or drive it home WFO lol! These home built setups do work but it's a matter of time for me, so many other things to do. I will keep an eye out for some direct to head on the used market and if I don't fine any I will build.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 08:11AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
It is claimed ITB or something similar is "not needed" and some big HP is available using stock whatever manifold..

Why then on MkIII cars did VW ---and everybody else---switch to ITB the instant it was allowed:


And why do ALL these dinosaur Swedes---people paid by factories to do rally engine R&D for decades---as well as developent work/builds for ordinary humans---always any time rules permit--go carbs or ITBs..

Are they all fools? Or cynics and think "we" all are?

No, they decided they wanted 250-280hp rather than 220 and figured they would be at a disadvantage. That is like asking why a team moved from a 1.5 litre motor to a 2.0 litre motor when the rules changed to allow it....



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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 08:34AM
The move to ITBs was a result of the relaxing of FIA Group A rules in the mid-1990s and the creation of Kit variants, found in the 'VO' homologation extensions.

All where previously the manufacturers had to use standard plenums, standard exhaust manifolds, standard cranks, rods etc.

-> FIA Formula 2, Ford Escort Maxis, Clio Maxis, Almeras, Ibizas etc.

Cue all manner of engine geometry changes as a weapons-grade war broke out, unlimited rpms, and 84 x 90mm Golf engines, previously only seen in the Audi 80 Competition / A4 touring car engine (85mm bore).

That explains the 220bhp to 260/280bhp published figures in such a short space of time.

Golf engines built by Lehmann and also Mader for the Seat shortblock 16vs amongst others.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 11:45AM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
john vanlandingham
It is claimed ITB or something similar is "not needed" and some big HP is available using stock whatever manifold..

Why then on MkIII cars did VW ---and everybody else---switch to ITB the instant it was allowed:


And why do ALL these dinosaur Swedes---people paid by factories to do rally engine R&D for decades---as well as developent work/builds for ordinary humans---always any time rules permit--go carbs or ITBs..

Are they all fools? Or cynics and think "we" all are?

No, they decided they wanted 250-280hp rather than 220 and figured they would be at a disadvantage. That is like asking why a team moved from a 1.5 litre motor to a 2.0 litre motor when the rules changed to allow it....

I will be just a little more pointed since you are being intentionallty obtuse.

I chose to believe those Swedish guys paid to do R&D about the max you can do--in a rally motor--with any stock VW (and Saab and Volvo) intake manifold,
and what THEY said the problem was---runner volume and port velocity needed for road car use---

-rather than whoever it was you talked to and what they convinced you to believe.

Josh, you accuse me of "trolling".
I'm not, and I can "accuse" you of intention obtuseness and willful dogmatism.. So there!

I asked and will keep asking to drive a point home, in an vain effort toward DIALOG.

Why does EVERY engine guy for DECADES, when the rules and budget allow, go ITBs or sidedraft carbs?
Even for the relatively mild, power-curve biased engines we wish for in rally?

Why don't they retain the stock intake manifolds 9and just jam on giant throttle bodies like is required on American brand specialty forumz?

And a individual question: do you ever speak with serious---by that I mean not your local machine shop guy----engine development people about PORT VELOCITY?

Did you follow the link? http://www.stahlmotor.se/Teknik/Hastkrafter/hastkrafter.html

This guy has done things----who do you think knows more and has more experience?


Your motor --judging from the in-car videos especially the sounds----SEEMS like an extremely mild motor and again SEEMS to be driven quite conservatively.....
Not everybody wants to do that...

Can THEY discuss the direction they want to go?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 12:07PM
John, I am not sure what part of "The rules changed to allow ITBs so people started using them" is lost on you. Yes, the stock manifolds are a bottleneck at about 220hp. No one is trying to claim otherwise. The one point that I did make was about the inherent mechanical complexity of ITBs compared to a single manifold and throttle body. And, how that extra complication means more potential problems, more maintenance, and more things to worry about in general given our desire to drive in conditions that are not friendly to itty-bitty little linkages and such.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Your motor --judging from the in-car videos especially the sounds----SEEMS like an extremely mild motor and again SEEMS to be driven quite conservatively.....
Not everybody wants to do that...

Can THEY discuss the direction they want to go?

There is no doubt that motor is quite mild --- that is the whole point of my advice ---> it doesn't take a lot of effort or money or complexity or engineering to make decent power from the 2.0L 16v despite any and all of its known inadequacies.

There is also no doubt that I drive it rather conservatively (despite winning a lot). I would love to spend 20 hours a week driving and getting better and doing more events but I don't and therefore, i surely drive a lot slower than what is possible. It isn't a matter of desire, it is a matter of practicality.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:19PM
Assert 220 all you want but the people that built those cars say max around 175 with stock manifolds...because runner volume.

Have you invested the time to call any of those guys listed?
No, because you are convinced by something somebody told you or you read in some online forum..

Call them.
I have. And I have visited..

And what part of the 2 part question do you have trouble comprehending Josh?

First part: It was Why did VW go to ITB---answer BECAUSE it was BETTER for RALLY

Second part to emphasise it is nothing unusual: Why oes anybody since time began go to carb or ITB the moment rules and budget allow?

Because it is BETTER for rally power..

The rest is fluff, Josh. Inter-net forum fluff "truisms".

Tjhis whole bit;
Quote

The one point that I did make was about the inherent mechanical complexity of ITBs compared to a single manifold and throttle body. And, how that extra complication means more potential problems, more maintenance, and more things to worry about in general given our desire to drive in conditions that are not friendly to itty-bitty little linkages and such.

is vague truisms...which is bullshit when talking to friends... Loaded words "complexity" "complication" "potential problems" "worry".
You are far brighter person than me, Josh... but yet somehow even a numbskull like me can not just overcome all those "potential problems" and "complexity", but make it work and give it virtually no thought...

And yet somehow virtually anybody since time began who can afford it and the rules allows somehow struggles by....


Maybe if you had been active in that time period and spoke with the principal people involved, know which cars worked and why, had any actual data like actual acceleration for this vs that in real conditions, you would understand better*...Who knows.

What evar.



* and see that these full prepped modern FWD cars were in fact no quicker on SSs than good club level 240s and Opels you might understand why I push those cars: for same on stage performance it is fractions of the cost of a F2 kit car..



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:22PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
First part: It was Why did VW go to ITB---answer BECAUSE it was BETTER for RALLY

Erm - see below. It's solely because the rules changed. Absolute gospel. No forum gossip.


Quote
Chris Eyre
The move to ITBs was a result of the relaxing of FIA Group A rules in the mid-1990s and the creation of Kit variants, found in the 'VO' homologation extensions.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:34PM
Good grief John. The numbers are not just from me, they are from VW as Chris posted above (and he is surely far deeper in the know that you are on matters VW related) and many other sources confirmed over the past 23 years the ABF motors have been around. You sure your guy wasn't talking about the 1987-1992 16v motor with the little bitty intake manifold like the US spec cars all had?



Again --- Stock manifold GpA output specs from VWMS directly ---> 163kw = 219hp
The VWMS parts catalog & spec/setup sheets even shows the manifolds and part numbers so you can see for yourself.





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