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FWD w/welded Diff

Posted by ElectroTech 
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
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1992 Golf


FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 02:41PM
I've read through all 60 pages in the construction forum and read the few threads regarding welded diffs and would like to know if many guys have gone that route on their FWD cars.
For me it would be in a MK2 VW with an 020 trans.
From a budget standpoint saving the cost of a proper diff would free up some cash to use elsewhere.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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MattP
Matt Pullen
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 03:11PM
You're gonna hate it on the transits.



Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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1992 Golf


Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 03:17PM
For sure Matt, kinda like my Dodge in 4WD.
What do you run?
I see that even some road racing guys do it, like to hear from some people who've run a welded diff and stuck with it.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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MattP
Matt Pullen
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 03:22PM
I'm running an open diff at the moment, looking to get an 8.8 with lsd and 4.10 or 4.56 gears. nice and cheap from pick'n'pull



Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
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1992 Golf


Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 03:31PM
I'd run welded or spool for sure in a ranger tons of 9" stuff out there too.
I'm kinda thinking that with PS and CVs it's not that bad with a welded diff on a FWD, pretty sure if you aren't mindful you could break things pretty easy. I run a diesel with 7 times the torque and you can break shit at will if so inclined.

Anyone have some seat time in a FWD with welded/spooled front diff?



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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Snidewhips
Jermama
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 07:37PM
i don't know jack but do know fwd plus steering angle plus throttle equals cv hardship. i'm welding and installing hydraulic hand brake to decrease steering input for tighter stuffs hence saving cvs from blah blah blah. unless someone buys my gen2 crx/integra hotbits. then i'm building a truck. matts basically my hero



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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 08:42PM
Quote
ElectroTech
I'd run welded or spool for sure in a ranger tons of 9" stuff out there too.
I'm kinda thinking that with PS and CVs it's not that bad with a welded diff on a FWD, pretty sure if you aren't mindful you could break things pretty easy. I run a diesel with 7 times the torque and you can break shit at will if so inclined.

Anyone have some seat time in a FWD with welded/spooled front diff?

None myself since I've always had a good Salisbury type all steel LSD which I would set the breakaway to anywhere from 90 ft/lbs to 120...No power steering..
but importantly equal length driveshafts, very good postition of box (no screwy driveshaft angles)

So despite manual rack--2,2 turns-----my tight diff was fine on gravel

Now 2 friends did do the welded diff thing..
One pulled it out in 1 day..
Honda with weird driveshaft lengths like 15" one side and 4 feet on the other. Horrible he said, insane..But that was low power, snow tires, manual steering.

The other was in Omni GLH for which there was no viable option and the diff was markedly smaller than my little Saab diff..
Eventually he had equal length driveshfts thanks to the "support bearing" deal bolted to the block.
He was a fan of welded...
Turbo power, quick steering--2.5 turns
You could "limp out" whenever the driveshafts would break..

I wouldn't think of it in a Golf.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 08:58PM
Ok,
Gripper it is......
Car has no power steering, what are thoughts on that?
Last VW I had was a full load MK2 Jetta Carat, I ran that w/o PS for years and never really bothered me even slow going.



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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 09:51PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Ok,
Gripper it is......
Car has no power steering, what are thoughts on that?
Last VW I had was a full load MK2 Jetta Carat, I ran that w/o PS for years and never really bothered me even slow going.

Tests with WRC level fwd heroes, both really the last men to win WRC events in FWD cars so they were good and consistent --showed 1 sec per km quicker with PS...

It means you can set the diff to a stiffer breakaway, for more grip and have easy steering...
Only drawback is specifically Golf related and thats the poor---low---placement of the PS pump...creative bracketry to raise the pump sounds do-able...and easier than the electric column some people have tried.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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1992 Golf


Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 14, 2015 10:24PM
PS was a bastardized afterthought for the NA market.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2015 10:54PM by ElectroTech.
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DG_Rally
Dave Grenwis
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 15, 2015 09:12AM
I've been running a welded 02a for the last 3 events (6 days of racing). 1st event I had no power steering and no seat time learning how to drive it, that sucked. The last 2 events with power steering I got used to it and like it. With PS its not bad at all on the road or transits. I don't even mind driving it around town. It takes a while to get used to the driving style on gravel, you need to give it gas to turn. It was hard to break the habit of lifting while braking or oh shit moments but you can't if you want to steer, never lift. I'll have to knock on wood after saying this but I haven't had any drive shaft issues. The bolts that go from the inner CV to the transmission flanges need to be looked after because I've found them to get really loose after a day of rallying. I know people that have had reliability issues with welded 020's but I don't have any experience with that. Personally, I think it is totally worth it if you want save money for something else like a final drive. LSD's are expensive and I haven't heard an argument that supports them being sooo much better than a welded diff for rally, maybe a just a little better. You can still break axles with an LSD but you can't drive out on a broken one like you can with welded. It's a huge upgrade over running an open diff.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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Pete
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 15, 2015 12:51PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
The other was in Omni GLH for which there was no viable option and the diff was markedly smaller than my little Saab diff..
Eventually he had equal length driveshfts thanks to the "support bearing" deal bolted to the block.
He was a fan of welded...
Turbo power, quick steering--2.5 turns
You could "limp out" whenever the driveshafts would break..

That's the FWD that I drove with a welded diff... Was somebody's ex PGT car or something. Sometime between the 80s and when I drove it the GLH rack disappeared and a 4 turn base Omni rack went in. Which made it really suck, but damned if the car didn't go wherever the front tires were pointed as long as you were on the throttle. Off the throttle the steering was useless, maybe would have been better if it wasn't like spinning a rudder wheel.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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1992 Golf


Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 18, 2015 12:35AM
Quote
DG_Rally
I've been running a welded 02a for the last 3 events (6 days of racing). 1st event I had no power steering and no seat time learning how to drive it, that sucked. The last 2 events with power steering I got used to it and like it. With PS its not bad at all on the road or transits. I don't even mind driving it around town. It takes a while to get used to the driving style on gravel, you need to give it gas to turn. It was hard to break the habit of lifting while braking or oh shit moments but you can't if you want to steer, never lift. I'll have to knock on wood after saying this but I haven't had any drive shaft issues. The bolts that go from the inner CV to the transmission flanges need to be looked after because I've found them to get really loose after a day of rallying. I know people that have had reliability issues with welded 020's but I don't have any experience with that. Personally, I think it is totally worth it if you want save money for something else like a final drive. LSD's are expensive and I haven't heard an argument that supports them being sooo much better than a welded diff for rally, maybe a just a little better. You can still break axles with an LSD but you can't drive out on a broken one like you can with welded. It's a huge upgrade over running an open diff.

Hey man, with the loosening bolts I'd bet your inner and outer CVs are not "timed" together, meaning that if you had the boots off both ends the bearings should line up perfectly, otherwise they will work against each other a little tiny bit, this is really easy to see with u-joints since it's just 2 yokes needing to line up. Probably only off by one or 2 splines.



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BobOfTheFuture
Rob Russo
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 18, 2015 04:09AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Tests with WRC level fwd heroes, both really the last men to win WRC events in FWD cars so they were good and consistent --showed 1 sec per km quicker with PS...

Wow! I guess it would be as important, or more so for RWD too?



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DG_Rally
Dave Grenwis
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Re: FWD w/welded Diff
June 26, 2015 02:34PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Hey man, with the loosening bolts I'd bet your inner and outer CVs are not "timed" together, meaning that if you had the boots off both ends the bearings should line up perfectly, otherwise they will work against each other a little tiny bit, this is really easy to see with u-joints since it's just 2 yokes needing to line up. Probably only off by one or 2 splines.

That's very possible. I'll check them out the next time I have them out. Thanks!



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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