NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
That is well more than the 40 cm^2 required by the rulebook. I've got to deal with a few NASA scrutineers regarding rules interpretations or legalities. At least three customers I've had to intercede with the scrutineer though the first he was actually correct that the cage was not NASA legal since NASA doesn't follow FIA 253 as closely as I had thought and I hadn't read NRS book that closely since most customers were getting RA logbooks. It should be noted that the FIA revised 253 in 2014 and it now aligns with the NASA interpretation of that particular rule. (Regarding V in roof and V in rear stays being required together) That was I think our third cage. Grant Hughes Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2016 09:06PM by NoCoast. |
Thomas Kimsey Thomas Kimsey Senior Moderator Location: Rochester, New Hampshire Join Date: 10/05/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 271 Rally Car: 1988 XRatty |
The NASA scrutineer isn't concerned with suspension loading into the shell and is more worried about front impact to the top of the cage loading into the rear tower towards the back of the car. Doesn't care that that lower member will be in tension and should hold things just fine.
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
That shock mount in both design--arches! mllions of arches!! and material--it is way thicker--easily 2.5 times---is the strongest thing in the car..I have some towers chopped out, Maybe aI can post a piccie, and give a measurement..... ITS fawking strong---Mr Scrut Tin Ear why do you suppose Ford did it and for FUCKS SAKE does he think a thin wheel arch or the SIDE of the tower stronger?. Have you tried ridicule? Cause the guy is not thinking too hard. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Thomas Kimsey Thomas Kimsey Senior Moderator Location: Rochester, New Hampshire Join Date: 10/05/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 271 Rally Car: 1988 XRatty |
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
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Not Trolling Keith Morison Senior Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Point to the NASA rule book:
The backstays must be attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends of the main rollbar or lateral rollbars, on both sides of the car. They must make an angle of at least 30° relative to a vertical plane, must run rearwards, must be straight, and be placed as close as practical to the interior side panels of the body shell. Although not required to do so, the backstays usually connect to the rear strut towers Look for diagrams of homologated designs as supporting information. Go over his head if you have to. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Copy and paste the rules quoted just above and include the photos I posted and search for more. There is no stronger place in the back of the car...Some thinking may be required. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Senior Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Awwww... Thanks for playing so nicely John. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Godlike Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
This has been the trend lately. Rules don't mean much anymore its what the scrutineer feels like that moment. There are at least a couple of cars that were rejected prior to an event although they were grandfathered in. One ended up re-caging cause the same scrutineer as above decided it was not safe yet that very car won a national championship a few years back... rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
Thomas Kimsey Thomas Kimsey Senior Moderator Location: Rochester, New Hampshire Join Date: 10/05/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 271 Rally Car: 1988 XRatty |
Has anyone gone above his head to get a logbook? |
DexterVW David Baker Professional Moderator Location: Rhode my Island Join Date: 11/20/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 290 Rally Car: 95 GTI TDI |
Student or Teacher (engineer or hippy?) Both great people but sometimes they do go a little OTT. Getting a logbook on the westcoast was so easy. |
Thomas Kimsey Thomas Kimsey Senior Moderator Location: Rochester, New Hampshire Join Date: 10/05/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 271 Rally Car: 1988 XRatty |
Engineer |
tdrrally edward mucklow Professional Moderator Location: charleston,wv Join Date: 05/31/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 763 Rally Car: ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle |
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MarkHille Mark Hille Elite Moderator Location: The hills of CT Join Date: 10/04/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 135 Rally Car: I have two crap boxes |
This was the exact photo that I received in an email from Mike Hurst and Don Taylor from Rally America that they said was both their preferred method of attaching the backstays to the rear tower. I wish Gene had not been kicked off the site because I think he would have had valuable insight on this issue. My understanding of the situation is if you do anything considered "unconventional", even if you have followed the rules to the T, the individual scrutineer is the person signing off on the vehicle and the one personally responsible (whatever that ultimately means is up for interpretation) if something happens. If you do the cage in the "conventional" manner and even if the cage may "look/ feel/ whatever" dangerous, there is little power for the scrutineer to say no. I'm no expert but I have been in contact with numerous people with both NASA and RA about this very issue. My cage has been deemed legal everywhere except on the east coast in RA. Don wants me to add two bars and then he would be fine with it. |
DexterVW David Baker Professional Moderator Location: Rhode my Island Join Date: 11/20/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 290 Rally Car: 95 GTI TDI |
I've been going back and forth on this topic all day (damn slow day in Solidworks land): on one hand they should scrutineer to the rules, not ad in FIA regs or extra tubes, but on the other hand it's your life they are signing on... it's not really a tough if I was in their shoes. A few extra tubes is 40-50 bucks of material and time... where's the fight really?
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