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XR Build Thread

Posted by Thomas Kimsey 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,987

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: XR Build Thread
December 16, 2014 09:28AM
Quote
NoCoast
Quote
john vanlandingham
Grant you are full of shit...You simply don't understand and are talking shiit..
You are all gung ho on the BMW band wagon but that doesn't mean their obvious reverse way of doing their gearsets FOR THEIR obvious reasons is stupid for what WE do in rally..
And no amount of bullshit rationalizations is going to change what the numbers--and experience shows so obviously to any with any real experience.
Stop. You embarrass yourself.

Kettle meet pot.
I am 98% certain that I am the ONLY one on here that has driven both a nice spec Merkur and a nice spec BMW. Well, and probably Sean and Derik. They are both nice and both have their benefits.
You can't call me full of shit right after you say $4k ring and pinions and $17k gearboxes. Drenth DG400 is around 6000 euros. Not sure what the Samanosas is selling for, but doubt it's $17k. That's PPG sequential six speed STI range, not RWD range.
And $4k for a ring and pinion. Give me a fucking break. You are full of shit. Yeah, there's a 4.56 that some people sell for $1500-2000, but EXPERIENCE with these cars tells us that is not the right gearing and something around 4.10 is sufficient. But anything up to a 4.27 is easily found for $100 or less.

Grant you are so caught up in your rah rah Bee Em Dubya bullshit you can't even see I'm just making STOOPID prices as an examples of STOOOOPID prices.. I've looked at the various STUPIDLY expensive shit but since the stuff is STUPIDLY expensive and onluy an STUPID person would ask Daddy to buy him shit like that there's no point remembering the exact STUPID price because it is STUPID expensive.. !7,000 or 10,000 Euro or Dollars who gives a shit---it uis stupid..

That misses the point that the STOCK gearing is BACKWARDS and about as good as the T5 from a T-Bird...

It is STUPID for our purposes--hardly a selling point...

The best an HONEST person would say is.."Well if you get the 240hp/225 ft/lb 3.0 with the tricky variable cams the gear ratios are just barely adequate--if its flatish....and there's no other cars with similar engine output but better gears.."

It is very likely that you do not understand what good gear is due to your limited experience with cars--or other vehicles---with alternate box and final drive ratios.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: XR Build Thread
December 16, 2014 02:17PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Grant you are so caught up in your rah rah Bee Em Dubya bullshit you can't even see I'm just making STOOPID prices as an examples of STOOOOPID prices.. I've looked at the various STUPIDLY expensive shit but since the stuff is STUPIDLY expensive and onluy an STUPID person would ask Daddy to buy him shit like that there's no point remembering the exact STUPID price because it is STUPID expensive.. !

The best an HONEST person would say is.."Well if you get the 240hp/225 ft/lb 3.0 with the tricky variable cams the gear ratios are just barely adequate--if its flatish....and there's no other cars with similar engine output but better gears.."

Why? I talked with Drenth about using their MPG or DG400 gearbox in the Merkur. There are STOOPID prices for everything.
I went to the u-pull junkyard on BOGO day. $65 and I had a 4.1 final drive and clutch pack LSD from a BMW. I'll probably get $10-20 back from scrap on the unused case and final drive also.
I'm gonna chock the LSD case up in the mill and machine a few mils out of that. A few hundred on some new plates and I have a nice tight LSD that I can tune the breakaway torque to what I want it to. Oh yeah, I can also machine the ramp angles to get less lockup on decel since that was the one thing I didn't like in RWD with a welded diff.
Or if I'm feeling lazy I can pay a few different places $1500 for a 4.27 final drive repacked diff. That's about the price of a 4.56 final drive for the Euro Ford 7.5" differential.

Anyhow, enough crazy talk. I have a few minutes since daughter is napping at home and not lab and I'm actually on a computer...
Here's my rear brake setup.


This is a pretty decent setup. 0.81" X 10.75" rotor on 4 piston Wilwood NDL calipers. The carrier is the only thing that isn't off the shelf. The rear hub needed a little bit of diameter turned out of it but it allows use of an off the shelf brake hat and rotor. I think I paid around $900 for the rear setup a few years ago. I do still have some of the knurled press fit 7/16-20 fittings that the adapter uses. The adapter is a machined plate that sits between the STA and bearing carrier so pretty simple and similar to other kits out there.
I coupled that with a dual master setup from the UK and the JVAB from kit. Hydraulic handbrake similar to the one I sell:
http://rally.build/automotive-plumbing-solutions-vertical-hydraulic-handbrake/
I used all braided lines in the car as that was the easier solution for me at the time. It is more expensive but I found it easier to get a non-leak fitting with DIY reuseable AN fittings than a crappy tube flaring tool.
All in I think my brake setup ran around $3300.

Since I can't look back through pages of John's drivel but from memory you are not afraid to get your fabrication on. I'd look through Sean's build and find where he modified the stock pedal box to modify that to use dual masters. Much cleaner packaging than the crappy overseas kit I got.

I seem to recall people talking about radiators. One thing I've determined, you can't spend too much on a radiator, but too little cooling can sure cost a shit ton. Some of the ebay and such ones are more comparable to an intercooler radiator than anything decent. I haven't figured out a solution other than low boost but it's on my list. Of course on that list is also, build a BMW cage, build a BMW, build a Subaru cage, swap a BMW engine, build another BMW cage, swap another BMW engine...



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
Infallible Moderator
Location: The hills of CT
Join Date: 10/04/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 134

Rally Car:
I have two crap boxes


Re: XR Build Thread
December 17, 2014 11:54AM
Quote
NoCoast

I seem to recall people talking about radiators. One thing I've determined, you can't spend too much on a radiator, but too little cooling can sure cost a shit ton. Some of the ebay and such ones are more comparable to an intercooler radiator than anything decent. I haven't figured out a solution other than low boost but it's on my list. Of course on that list is also, build a BMW cage, build a BMW, build a Subaru cage, swap a BMW engine, build another BMW cage, swap another BMW engine...

I have a merkur depot shorty radiator and a mike olyer (sp) aftermarket 2wd intercooler. Anything above 15psi and it will get HOT after a few stage minutes. I suggest oil cooling if your going to try more boost. I've run a similar cooler to this Chinese oil cooler on stage above 18psi sustainably (with proper engine management):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/aluminum-oil-cooler-mazda-RX2-RX3-RX4-RX7-oilcooler-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-/331261506350?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d20b9732e&vxp=mtr

I'm guessing you could do 20psi + and never have to worry about overheating.

FEI, if you ever run a stage that doesn't have a cool down drive after it, I.E. one that has a turn around and runs backwards, open your hood and let things cool down. Your coolant lines, boost control lines, and turbo will thank you.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

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Merkur



Re: XR Build Thread
December 17, 2014 02:45PM
Interesting. I have similar radiator, Cossie 2wd intercooler and nice big Setrab oil cooler. 10 psi I was fine. 15 it'd get hot and require cool down. I blame too much skidplate coverage in hindsight.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Thomas Kimsey
Thomas Kimsey
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Location: Rochester, New Hampshire
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Posts: 271

Rally Car:
1988 XRatty


Re: XR Build Thread
December 17, 2014 08:50PM
Im going to start with using a 2wd intercooler, saab 900 copper core radiator, and MB 240D oil cooler. If oil temperatures end up still being an issue I could probably find a larger 300d cooler.
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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I have two crap boxes


Re: XR Build Thread
December 18, 2014 07:57AM
I started with something like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-459/overview/

Tried it in front of and behind the radiator. While its better than nothing, having the rx7 oil cooler sitting down low but high enough it won't get taken out unless I hit something pretty good was key. It fits in there pretty good. Not sure what the Setrab or MB 240b look like. The intercooler, radiator, and oil cooler all get pretty even flow. Is my set up ideal? I'm sure its not but it seems to be possible to throw some boost at it and not get scary hot. Oh, and I guess I should explain that I was monitoring the oil temp coming out of the pump, the block coolant temp, and the coolant temp coming out of the head. I don't think we ever saw temps above 230 which wasn't possible with the summit cooler. With the summit cooler, the longer the stage the hotter it got until the coolant temp would rise and we would have to back off a bit.
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Thomas Kimsey
Thomas Kimsey
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Location: Rochester, New Hampshire
Join Date: 10/05/2013
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 271

Rally Car:
1988 XRatty


Re: XR Build Thread
December 19, 2014 03:51PM
Quote
MarkHille
I started with something like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-459/overview/

Tried it in front of and behind the radiator. While its better than nothing, having the rx7 oil cooler sitting down low but high enough it won't get taken out unless I hit something pretty good was key. It fits in there pretty good. Not sure what the Setrab or MB 240b look like. The intercooler, radiator, and oil cooler all get pretty even flow. Is my set up ideal? I'm sure its not but it seems to be possible to throw some boost at it and not get scary hot. Oh, and I guess I should explain that I was monitoring the oil temp coming out of the pump, the block coolant temp, and the coolant temp coming out of the head. I don't think we ever saw temps above 230 which wasn't possible with the summit cooler. With the summit cooler, the longer the stage the hotter it got until the coolant temp would rise and we would have to back off a bit.

Any chance you still have the water cooling hooked up to the turbo?
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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Rally Car:
I have two crap boxes


Re: XR Build Thread
December 22, 2014 08:00AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey


Any chance you still have the water cooling hooked up to the turbo?

Nope. I've removed all unnecessary coolant lines to help simplify things and remove points of failure. I've blocked off the manifold and no longer have coolant running through that either. Ditch the stock "oil cooler". It puts more heat in than it takes out. I do still have lines to the heater core and have rigged up some fans by it to circulate air for the windscreen. I would say that is a necessary thing to have for defrost purposes. There are people that will say you should water cool the t3 but most people will say it isn't necessary and the only thing you will have to do is allow a short cool down idle to prevent coking. I've read that having the coolant lines to the turbo can tend to add exhaust heat to your cooling system. It makes sense but I'm not sure if it is true or not. I've changed the turbo on the side of the road during a rally and was happy I didn't have coolant lines running to it. Only missed one stage. You could argue that the turbo went because I didn't have coolant running to it but I would say it was probably because it was 25 years old and had 150,000 miles +.
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Thomas Kimsey
Thomas Kimsey
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1988 XRatty


Re: XR Build Thread
December 22, 2014 02:13PM
Quote
MarkHille
Quote
Thomas Kimsey


Any chance you still have the water cooling hooked up to the turbo?

Nope. I've removed all unnecessary coolant lines to help simplify things and remove points of failure. I've blocked off the manifold and no longer have coolant running through that either. Ditch the stock "oil cooler". It puts more heat in than it takes out. I do still have lines to the heater core and have rigged up some fans by it to circulate air for the windscreen. I would say that is a necessary thing to have for defrost purposes. There are people that will say you should water cool the t3 but most people will say it isn't necessary and the only thing you will have to do is allow a short cool down idle to prevent coking. I've read that having the coolant lines to the turbo can tend to add exhaust heat to your cooling system. It makes sense but I'm not sure if it is true or not. I've changed the turbo on the side of the road during a rally and was happy I didn't have coolant lines running to it. Only missed one stage. You could argue that the turbo went because I didn't have coolant running to it but I would say it was probably because it was 25 years old and had 150,000 miles +.

Yeah I am not running the coolant lines to the turbo either. Did you slot the 3 holes in the exhaust housing for quick change?
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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I have two crap boxes


Re: XR Build Thread
December 23, 2014 07:36AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey

Yeah I am not running the coolant lines to the turbo either. Did you slot the 3 holes in the exhaust housing for quick change?

No. I have other things that needed/need to get done before that. I'm also a little leery of doing so. I've seen competent people loose turbos off their manifolds on stage. I've personally experienced exhaust temp heating and cooling that loosened bolts rather quickly. I use stainless studs for most of my exhaust stuff. I can't remember if I use them there. Maybe someday I'll do it.
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modernbeat
Jason McDaniel
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Location: Dallas, TX
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Rally Car:
1963 SAAB Historic, 1995 Impreza Open Light totaled at WRC Mexico, 2005 STi Pikes Peak winner



Re: XR Build Thread
December 23, 2014 11:28AM
Quote
NoCoast
...Drenth DG400 is around 6000 euros. Not sure what the Samanosas is selling for, but doubt it's $17k. That's PPG sequential six speed STI range, not RWD range...

Having worked with both Martynas and Tony at Samsonas/VAC and with Dave at PPG, I'd go the PPG route every time. The price gouging and delays that occured by having to go through VAC were intollerable. If you want a Samsonas box, fly over, buy it in the UK and bring it over by hand. It's much cheaper that way.



Jason McDaniel
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Cosworth
Paulinho Ferreira
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Honda Civic



Re: XR Build Thread
December 29, 2014 11:28PM
Quote
modernbeat
Having worked with both Martynas and Tony at Samsonas/VAC and with Dave at PPG, I'd go the PPG route every time. The price gouging and delays that occured by having to go through VAC were intollerable. If you want a Samsonas box, fly over, buy it in the UK and bring it over by hand. It's much cheaper that way.

Price gouging? You mean the cost of shipping, duties and taxes? And buying in the UK will VAT free in your mind! And what delays are you talking about if you didnt even buy anything?

The fact that you were arrogant about it to the point where Martynas Samsonas himself refused to sell you anything might be something worth mentioning before bad mouthing 2 good standing companies.
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modernbeat
Jason McDaniel
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1963 SAAB Historic, 1995 Impreza Open Light totaled at WRC Mexico, 2005 STi Pikes Peak winner



Re: XR Build Thread
December 30, 2014 12:13AM
No, I mean that after I was quoted a "delivered" price at PRI, Tony quintipuled or more the cost of shipping ($250), duties ($34) and taxes. We committed to buy it and were promised a one month delivery date. Five months later, three days before we leave for Pikes Peak, we were informed that the transmisison finally arrived.

Martynas did not refuse to sell us the box. And was quite happy to speak to me at PRI earlier this month.

And who are you?



Jason McDaniel
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Eric Ewert
Eric Ewert
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volvo 240


Re: XR Build Thread
January 11, 2015 12:34AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey


Car should be a lot better with this. Supra 4.3, 250 ft lb breakaway and crush sleeve eliminator.

Hey Thomas did you find any instruction/ how to on installing the diff shim kit? I can't find a whole lot on it and am planning on stabbing away at this project asap so if you got something to offer I would very much appreciate it.

Edit: just walked over and actually had a better look at the kit. Failed to realize the first time that it has instructions. Im going to bed. drinking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2015 12:42AM by Eric Ewert.
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Thomas Kimsey
Thomas Kimsey
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Location: Rochester, New Hampshire
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Rally Car:
1988 XRatty


Re: XR Build Thread
January 11, 2015 04:47PM
Quote
Eric Ewert
Quote
Thomas Kimsey


Car should be a lot better with this. Supra 4.3, 250 ft lb breakaway and crush sleeve eliminator.

Hey Thomas did you find any instruction/ how to on installing the diff shim kit? I can't find a whole lot on it and am planning on stabbing away at this project asap so if you got something to offer I would very much appreciate it.

Edit: just walked over and actually had a better look at the kit. Failed to realize the first time that it has instructions. Im going to bed. drinking smiley


Yeah the clutch shims are easy. If you are going to replace any bearings while you are in there it gets a bit more complicated.
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