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VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement

Posted by Mr. K 
Chris Eyre
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 03:39AM
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DG_Rally
Quote
Chris Eyre
The Mk3 non gti VR6 knuckles I understand to be the same knuckles as Mk2 and Passat 4-stud B3 or B4 knuckles.

Mk3 non vr6 knuckles are not the same as Mk2, in North America anyway. The pickup points are the same but they are different in appearance and brakes are bigger.

Mk3 driveshafts work just fine. Mk3 non vr6 control arms and passat 4 cyl control arms have the same dimensions. So no need to go crazy with lengths. Finding old passat driveshafts will prove to be a chore so mk3's are my preference.

The pre-1988 Mk2 knuckles have an integral brake caliper carrier to take 239mm rotors only. I was referring to post-1988, as clearly prior 1988 would not work.

The Passat shafts are 441mm and 675mm from circlip groove to circlip groove
The GTI/VR6 MK3 shafts are 435mm and 667mm from circlip groove to circlip groove





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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DG_Rally
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 08:35AM
Quote
Chris Eyre
The pre-1988 Mk2 knuckles have an integral brake caliper carrier to take 239mm rotors only. I was referring to post-1988, as clearly prior 1988 would not work.

The Passat shafts are 441mm and 675mm from circlip groove to circlip groove
The GTI/VR6 MK3 shafts are 435mm and 667mm from circlip groove to circlip groove

Ok I think we're starting to muddy the waters here.

I've had an '87 GTI, '88 and '92 golfs and they all had the same knuckles. They were not the same as MK3 non-vr6 knuckles. Like I said, maybe its a North American VW thing.

I'm using non-vr6 driveshafts. I guess I should have been more specific but I thought it was kind of obvious since the vr6 stuff (knuckles, control arms, driveshafts, etc.) doesn't work with non-vr6 stuff, for the most part. You seem to have the numbers handy so why didn't you post the difference between 4 cyl passat driveshafts and non-vr6 mk3 driveshafts?

I'll say this again with some edits:

On my Mk2 I have B3 passat 4 cyl control arms, mk3 non-vr6 driveshafts, mk3 non-vr6 tie-rods, mk2 power rack, mk3 non-vr6 knuckles/brakes and JVAB struts. Not that it matters but I'm running an 02a and its got a welded diff. It works great, I just did LSPR with no issues.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 12:47PM by DG_Rally.
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Chris Eyre
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 08:50AM
Quote
DG_Rally
Quote
Chris Eyre
The pre-1988 Mk2 knuckles have an integral brake caliper carrier to take 239mm rotors only. I was referring to post-1988, as clearly prior 1988 would not work

Ok I think we're starting to muddy the waters here.

I've had an '87 GTI, '88 and '92 golfs and they all had the same knuckles. They were not the same as MK3 non-vr6 knuckles. Like I said, maybe its a North American VW thing.
It must be that, but I don't actually know of these hubs. If you did have any photos, it'd be interesting to look at them thumbs up


Quote
DG_Rally
I'm using non-vr6 driveshafts. I guess I should have been more specific but I thought it was kind of obvious since the vr6 stuff (knuckles, control arms, driveshafts, etc.) doesn't work with non-vr6 stuff, for the most part.

People have changed outer CVs on GTI/VR6 driveshafts before to run 4-stud configurations thumbs up

Quote
DG_Rally
You seem to have the numbers handy so why didn't you post the difference between 4 cyl passat driveshafts and non-vr6 mk3 driveshafts?

I've collated some data for these which says the shorter shaft is 2mm shorter on a non GTI/VR6 Golf than a Passat B3 / B4 and the longer shaft is 3mm longer on a Golf, so it sounds like they're in a working range, even though it needs double checking when the parts eventually surface.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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ReluctantGolf
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 08:50AM
Quote
DG_Rally
Quote
Chris Eyre
......

I'll say this again with some edits:

On my Mk2 I have B3 passat 4 cyl control arms, mk3 non-vr6 driveshafts, mk3 non-vr6 tie-rods, mk2 power rack, mk3 non-vr6 knuckles and JVAB struts. Not that it matters but I'm running an 02a and its got a welded diff. It works great, I just did LSPR with no issues.

Thanks for clarifying this! Now I know what exactly to get when I call GAP or go parts shopping in the junkyards. I have a 92 Golf GL with p/s and will be looking to do this upgrade at some point before doing my first event. When doing this swap however, do you also have to swap out the mk2 subframe for an mk3 subframe? or are the subframes the same size? Also, doing this swap also requires you to replace the rear beam to a mk3 one as well right? sorry for the elementary questions.
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Chris Eyre
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 08:56AM
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ReluctantGolf
When doing this swap however, do you also have to swap out the mk2 subframe for an mk3 subframe? or are the subframes the same size?

They're the same width, but with different engine mounts used.

Quote
ReluctantGolf
Also, doing this swap also requires you to replace the rear beam to a mk3 one as well right? sorry for the elementary questions.

No, they're very similar.

1353mm from backplate to backplate on an A3 GTI / VR6 rear beam.

1357mm from backplate to backplate on the earlier GTI A2s, 1340mm on the later ones.

If changing for any reason, the issue is getting one with the integral torsion bar in the right width. There are beams of up to 1376mm without integral torsion bars.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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Chris Eyre
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 09:08AM
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DG_Rally
Quote
Chris Eyre
The pre-1988 Mk2 knuckles have an integral brake caliper carrier to take 239mm rotors only. I was referring to post-1988, as clearly prior 1988 would not work.

I've had an '87 GTI, '88 and '92 golfs and they all had the same knuckles. They were not the same as MK3 non-vr6 knuckles. Like I said, maybe its a North American VW thing.


This is a UK/Europe knuckle from a 1988-onwards (pretty sure it's 1988, possibly 1987, would ned to check), whic is also used on the non-GTI / VR6 Mk3 Golf and 4-stud B3 / B4 Passat:







Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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DG_Rally
Dave Grenwis
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 09:55AM
Quote
Chris Eyre
People have changed outer CVs on GTI/VR6 driveshafts before to run 4-stud configurations thumbs up

Quote
DG_Rally
You seem to have the numbers handy so why didn't you post the difference between 4 cyl passat driveshafts and non-vr6 mk3 driveshafts?

I've collated some data for these which says the shorter shaft is 2mm shorter on a non GTI/VR6 Golf than a Passat B3 / B4 and the longer shaft is 3mm longer on a Golf, so it sounds like they're in a working range, even though it needs double checking when the parts eventually surface.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. thumbs up I'll snap some pictures of the 2 when I have a chance.

Mixing and matching inner and outer CV's gets tricky and thats why I went back to just the mk3 non-vr6 shafts. One thing I know for sure is the shorter Mk2 shaft is too short for the passat control arms. I got my spares mixed up and put one on by mistake. When in full droop the shaft would pull out of the flange, It made for some full pucker moments on stage when running a welded diff. Full 2wd to 1wd (right side only) when the left side was at full droop made the car pull sideways like a sonavabitch on gravel. When you put the car up on jack stands it wouldn't pull out, it needed to be driven. I didn't notice until I had it pulled out and sitting next to a mk3 shaft.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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DG_Rally
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 10:20AM
Quote
Chris Eyre
Quote
ReluctantGolf
When doing this swap however, do you also have to swap out the mk2 subframe for an mk3 subframe? or are the subframes the same size?

They're the same width, but with different engine mounts used.

Quote
ReluctantGolf
Also, doing this swap also requires you to replace the rear beam to a mk3 one as well right? sorry for the elementary questions.

No, they're very similar.

1353mm from backplate to backplate on an A3 GTI / VR6 rear beam.

1357mm from backplate to backplate on the earlier GTI A2s, 1340mm on the later ones.

If changing for any reason, the issue is getting one with the integral torsion bar in the right width. There are beams of up to 1376mm without integral torsion bars.

Right on to this ^

I put an ABA into my mk2 so I swapped the mk3 the subframe at the same time. It allows that motor to sit lower and more level than in the mk2 subframe. Not necessary otherwise.

I put a non-vr6 mk3 rear beam because it made the track a bit wider (approx. 1 inch) than the mk2 beam and because mk2 parts are getting hard to find in the midwest. The mk3 beam I used didn't have a torsion bar. The car came with an h&r sway bar on mk2 beam that fit perfectly on the mk3 beam. I'm also running mk3 rear calipers because the mk2 calipers tend to leak from the parking brake and again mk3 parts are easier to find (junkyard/parts store). I plan to go to the aluminum mk4 rear calipers at some point.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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Towona
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 12:16PM
Holy shit my head is spinning from all this good info coming in so fast.

My current setup:

Front:
Mk2 LCA's (unstrengthened) with all poly bushings
Mk2 Axles (aftermarket)
Mk2 power steering rack (the one with the waffle)
Mk2 inner tie rods
Mk2 outer tie rod ends
Mk3 knuckles (non GTi/VR6)
Mk3 discs/calipers (non GTi/VR6)
Mk? subframe (not sure, how can you tell?)
JVAB or Hotbits depending on the season


I wouldn't say that I've had issues with this setup, but we did pretzel a LCA and tie rod after hitting a large boulder a few years ago (flipped the car instantly), and recently bent a tie rod and slightly deformed a LCA after sliding sideways into a ditch (put the car up about 45*). I don't think I will be switching to passat control arms anytime soon (have a large stock of spare LCAs/axles/tie rods etc... that would become useless). I may look at beefing the lca up a bit though, but only after beefing up the subframe and unibody.

The boulder we hit (boulder with the mirror on it; kid is standing where the boulder was)


The pretzel'd LCA



The ditch strike


The bent tie rod (also shows my front setup described above)




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Towona
Tony P
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 12:18PM
Quote
Chris Eyre

This is a UK/Europe knuckle from a 1988-onwards (pretty sure it's 1988, possibly 1987, would ned to check), whic is also used on the non-GTI / VR6 Mk3 Golf and 4-stud B3 / B4 Passat:


I don't think we got this knuckle in NA until the MK3



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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 12:21PM
OOOOoooouuuuch!

Ain't too often you get a piccie of "the decisive moment"


Yeah, stronger arms, stronger crossmember, stronger body shells will save rally..



John Vanlandingham
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danster
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 24, 2014 12:55PM
Bit of confusion over the knuckle it seems. This may help clarify things.
All 8v mk2 GTIs used the 239mm vented disc design with intergaral caliper carrier for the entire production run. The only change to that setup being the bottom balljoint pin diameter changed from 17mm to 19mm around 1988.
16v mk2 GTIs used the same 239mm brakes up to 1989, then they changed to the 256mm design with separate caliper carrier as pictured in a post above (the G60 models used the same knuckle but with a different carrier to accept a 280mm disc.
Various Mk3 non GTI / VR models came with both the above options, ie 239mm solid or vented, and 256mm solid or vented.



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 26, 2014 02:14PM
Quote
DG_Rally
On my Mk2 I have B3 passat 4 cyl control arms, mk3 driveshafts, mk3 tie-rods, mk2 power rack, mk3 knuckles and JVAB struts. .


Exactly the setup we and many others have been running for years. Not sure when or where it started causing confusion but I have seen a lot of confusion in the past couple of years about what will and won't work.



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Towona
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 26, 2014 09:07PM
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Josh Wimpey
Quote
DG_Rally
On my Mk2 I have B3 passat 4 cyl control arms, mk3 driveshafts, mk3 tie-rods, mk2 power rack, mk3 knuckles and JVAB struts. .


Exactly the setup we and many others have been running for years. Not sure when or where it started causing confusion but I have seen a lot of confusion in the past couple of years about what will and won't work.

The MK3 tie rods... would that be inner an outers? Anyone use the straight scirocco outer tie rod ends?



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danster
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Re: VW Mk2 control arm reinforcement
October 27, 2014 05:04AM
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Towona
The MK3 tie rods... would that be inner an outers? Anyone use the straight scirocco outer tie rod ends?

If people are increasing the track of a mk2 by fitting mk3 or Passat shafts and wishbones, they will no doubt be using the inner mk3 tie rods as they are longer than the mk2 type.

Scirocco / Golf / Rabbit A1 outer tie rod ends are straight, where as the mk2 and 3 (the same) have a curve. That curve is so they clear the wheel rim on full lock.



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 05:05AM by danster.
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