The Local Rally Club Thread

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anders Green Wrote:
>
> > I've long thought that there should be some
> kind
> > "Rally Competitor's Club/Union/Group" that
> was
> > sanctioning body independent.
>
> Me too. Even Nicky Grist thought we could benefit
> from such an organization on his second to last
> visit, but many rally organizers see it as a
> threat. Kudos to you for seeing it as a positive
> influence.

Yep I've suggested this so many times but getting called idiot and Communist and troublenmaker ---- all for suggesting that leisure time activities might have some rudimentary democratic, membership based confederation, and the even more supossedly outrageous suggestion that Organisers and above all Sanctioning bodies might listen to the "memeberships" suggestions and desires--- sorta put the lid on that.
And that was when "we" were a so called "club".

Fat chance now with privately held corporations of any meaningful input.
>
>
>
>
> Lurch
> Eric Burmeister
> Greatlakesknowitallatlarge
> Dee-troit
> Still work at Ford...for now...check back
> tomorrow.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 02:28PM by john vanlandingham.

I think this is a completely silly idea. So call me and we can decide what form this should take.
Richard

---

RichardM

Richard Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think this is a completely silly idea. So call
> me and we can decide what form this should take.
> Richard
>
> RichardM

You pinko...

Lurch Wrote:

rally is a game of confidence. If you watch a rally, you see nearly everyone but the first couple cars in each class lift significantly before a corner, coast up, and then drop the hammer trying to make up for their lack of confidence by throwing dirt everywhere. (Heck, I've been guilty of in myself...moreso when I don't get seat time.) The front runners barely lift, carry lots of speed thru the corner...and if they're caught by something unexpected, they (seemingly miraculously) recover usually with a combination of throttle, brake, minimal steering input, and cool nerves.

The difference is confidence. The latter driver KNOWS he can handle whatever is on the backside of that turn. The former driver is afraid of what he can't see.


That is the best description I have read on rally.

---

In the long run reality always wins.

I read this too and my thought was:

How many folks are now going to fool themselves into being confident? What Lurch is missing in this description it that this only works when the confidence is coupled with long experience and literally hundreds or thousands of times into the same or sismilar situation; this is what develops the right and almost instinctive reactions to make the right control inputs. The confidence is only the part that keeps you from panicking, ignoring those developed reactions, and doing something stupid.

Case in point: We rounded a 90 left corner at night at 100 AW to see the rear of a car that had wrecked sticking right out in our exit line. (Dumb driver and co-driver were looking at the car rather than running to warn us and put out triangles!) The developed instinct was not 'immediately steer to avoid' but' I have to reduce speed a LOT before the car will be able to bite sufficiently steer around this obstacle.' Reaction: Straigthen the car to point directly at the offending car's rear end and the surrounding woods to be able to brake to then avoid. Brake hard. Then steer around. All this decision making in fractions of a second, becasue the developed driving instincts knew we could NOT continue in a sideways slide and neither stop nor have enough traction to avoid the offending vehicle.

Confidence is only the part that lets you properly apply your learning, IMO.

Regards,
Mark B.

Very true, wise friend.

I didn't describe it that way to instill "false confidence" in folks such that they get themselves in trouble and think they can do what they can't.

My point was that you gain this kind of confidence thru tons of seat time...more seat time time than most people in our income brackets can afford, at least in a rally car. It spoke to my assertion that dirt bikes and karts and yes, rally car practice venues are all very important to the development of confidence.

Seat time is paramount.

If you DO have the resources to get all this seat time in rally cars, all the better. As JB developed his talent, he was considered to have confidence exceeding his talent to some extent...and he wrecked a lot of cars...far more than most could afford to wreck. But he also developed into arguably the best US driver ever.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you DO have the resources to get all this seat
> time in rally cars, all the better. As JB
> developed his talent, he was considered to have
> confidence exceeding his talent to some
> extent...and he wrecked a lot of cars...far more
> than most could afford to wreck. But he also
> developed into arguably the best US driver ever.

Didn't you mean to put KB? I know K is one letter away from J. (If we had those lame little smiley things I'd have one with a tongue sticking out.)

I'm on a roll today.

---

Grant Hughes

John Buffum = very very good Ken Block = unknown so far.

As far as having the skills and the confidance, I think it took me 8 rallys and 2 days at driving school. Driving school was the key for me. I picked a turn and I found out exactly how fast I could drive that turn. I tired it all diff ways, some times flicks, sometimes left foot braking sometimes slow in fast out sometimes hand brakes etc. In total I spent 11 hrs driving about 5 miles of course. That was plenty of time to try evrerything out. I even practiced what to do when I was going way too fast ie how to crash best.

My instructor was borried out of his mind I am sure, I would do a section over and over again and again tring out little changes each time. Very methodical.

I think people that dismiss the vaule of rally school are vastly mistaken you can not get this type of exp in a rally nor can you get it at rally-x. Well OK you can get it driving rallys but it will take years vs 2 days.

How many rally-x's do you need to do to get 11 hrs of seat time? My math says about 110 of them.

---

In the long run reality always wins.

man, I can't wait to hit Tim O'neil this summer. I keep thinking to myself what can I learn in 3 days that I don't already? But everyone who's gone says go go go.

Is it the concentrated seat time that makes it so valuable? Is it the oppurtunity to work on exercises or drills?

I've been practicing left foot braking, throttle input for weight transfer, effects of road geometry, etc, for years on my computer so I figure I have the bases covered, right?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 02:32PM by Eddie Fiorelli.

Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> man, I can't wait to hit Tim O'neil this summer. I
> keep thinking to myself what can I learn in 3 days
> that I don't already? But everyone who's gone says
> go go go.
>
> Is it the concentrated seat time that makes it so
> valuable? Is it the oppurtunity to work on
> exercises or drills?
>
> I've been practicing left foot braking, throttle
> input for weight transfer, effects of road
> geometry, etc, for years on my computer so I
> figure I have the bases covered, right?

Call, and I'll splain you.
>
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jan 10, 2008 by Eddie
> Fiorelli.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It spoke to my assertion
> that dirt bikes and karts and yes, rally car
> practice venues are all very important to the
> development of confidence.
>
> Seat time is paramount.
>
Yes, I agree. If you spend concentrated time on dirt bikes, you will go up a learning curve and develop confidence in thsoe skills. You will also see what a learning curve really is, and know that you need to go up one for rally, and take those steps of learning like what Derek describes.

I am not sure how karting works, but I am farily convinced that auto-x will do the least of all for rally development. Rally-x does more, but teaches only some driving skills, and very limited amounts of the key peeception skills. Preception skills are those which tell you how to attack, or NOT attack, a corner never seen at speed. I also think that rally-x can teach one to be aggressive, with no learning how agression needs to be managed, and mask the need for this critical perceptive ability on-stage.

It takes time. The good part is that you are having loads of fun while learning!

Regards,
Mark B.

starion887 Wrote:
> I am not sure how karting works, but I am farily
> convinced that auto-x will do the least of all for
> rally development.

100s (and presumably 4 strokes) teach you to conserve cornering momentum. These clutch karts take forever to accelerate, but go like stink once up to speed, so learning to be as clean and smooth as possible is a good lesson for the overweight tubs we call "Rally Cars."

Shifter karts teach you something different. These things have tremendous acceleration and the ability to break the rear wheels loose at anytime. Just the experience of throwing one of these around a twisty sprint kart track is sensory overload. Things happen SO FAST. I was only out there with one other kart. I can't imagine a full grid. Things happen on a shifter WAY FASTER than in a rally car. Getting into a rally car is like driving in slow motion after driving a shifter. Good for your ability to recognize trouble and react appropriately and calmly to any situation...not to mention good straight up driving practice. (You can drive ass out all day long if you want, and it does make you comfortable with horsing around with horsepower. But smooth is still fast even on shifters.)

It's my opinion that dirt bikers are more adaptable to differing surface conditions than non bike riding rallyists. The sensations resulting from the available grip are amplified thru your body on a bike such that your contact patches become an extra sensory input, like your fingertips. In the car it's like this amplifier is turned off, and you have to feel extra hard, but you can still feel the changes if you are tuned to it.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 05:40PM by Lurch.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Call, and I'll splain you.

---------------------------------------------------------

You're not going to try to talk me out of it, are you? I've been wanting to go for almost 10 years now.

Regarding 100cc karts, they are probably the cheapest "real auto" racing you can do IMO. That's not to say that I think its better than bikes for rally, I have no idea, I'm from NYC so we don't ride dirt bikes :p.

I did karting for about 2 years when money was so low that I couldn't keep rallying. Great sport, although to be honest the community sucked. Maybe its the nature of wheel to wheel racing but most people were really tight lipped about their setups and tips for newbs. That was odd for me.

The good thing about the 100cc classes is that you can do a variety of them. You can do the "can" classe which is fairly benign, move up to a pipe class which uses a more elaborate exhaust, and/or do a direct drive class where there is no clutch mechanism between the engine and the axel which thus requires more finess regarding momentum control. You can do all these classes with just some minor harware change on your chassis. Heh, you just need a good friend to be your starter for the direct drive classes.

However, the downside is of doing 100cc karts is that you'll probably be jealous of the 125cc shifter karts .

I never understood the attraction of autocross when karting is available...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 06:17PM by Eddie Fiorelli.

Here's a favorite pic of mine of my hauler I used to tow the kart around..Man was that embarrassing

I'm sure Zimmer would be proud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 06:27PM by Eddie Fiorelli.

derek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lurch Wrote:
>
> rally is a game of confidence. If you watch a
> rally, you see nearly everyone but the first
> couple cars in each class lift significantly
> before a corner, coast up, and then drop the
> hammer trying to make up for their lack of
> confidence by throwing dirt everywhere. (Heck,
> I've been guilty of in myself...moreso when I
> don't get seat time.) The front runners barely
> lift, carry lots of speed thru the corner...and if
> they're caught by something unexpected, they
> (seemingly miraculously) recover usually with a
> combination of throttle, brake, minimal steering
> input, and cool nerves.
>
> The difference is confidence. The latter driver
> KNOWS he can handle whatever is on the backside of
> that turn. The former driver is afraid of what he
> can't see.
>
>
> That is the best description I have read on rally.
>

And so a good rally car needs good brakes and suspension that will allow the car to do what you want it to, because those two things build confidence...

Y'know, the most confidence inspiring car I ever had was a Subaru... *gack*

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.