The Local Rally Club Thread

You want to know how to make "the jump"?
Lets see, from your myspace it says you make $100,000-150,000 a year. Thats easily 6 times what I make and somehow I've managed to rally for the last 4 years. Secondly you drive a wrx, right? Probably cost/worth about 10 times as much as the street car I drive. You could eaasily buy 3 of my rallycars and safety gear with how much a wrx costs. So sell the street car, buy a $1500 daily beater to get you to work, and use the remainder to buy a rally car thats ready to go. Then ask, beg, borrow, steal a service rig and trailer and go to Seed 9.

The ONLY thing stoping ANYONE from rallying is money. Thats all it takes. If you have the money you can run in the top 5 nationally. But "the jump" for you may be to swallow your pride and change your lifestyle so that you can divert the money needed to fund a rally effort. That may entail driving a beater every day, eating out never, wearing cheap clothes, quitting drugs (not suggesting you're currently on them, its just something that lots of people do that costs lots of money that could be used for rallying), etc. If you cant afford to rally now, but you want to rally in the future, you have to realize that something has to change.

If I had a dime for every time someone driving a fancy wrx, sti, evo, etc said to me "Man I sure wish I could afford to rally," I'd have a lot of dimes. In reality I dont really think that its the money thats keeping them from entering the sport, its the lack of commitment. To make rally work on a budget you have to be FULLY COMMITTED to doing whatever it takes to keep on rallying. Its a lifestyle that doesnt overlap with many other lifestyles, and unless you have the money to pay someone to run your team thats a sacrifice you have to swallow.

When I bought my rally car I was 21, IN COLLEGE, making MAYBE $10k a year. I made it work because I wanted it.

And as far as getting sponsors goes, take a look at the bottom of this thread: http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,10556,page=2 and onto the next page of it to see how many experienced rallyists feel about how worthwhile chasing sponsorship is. Meaning, all the time/money you spend finding sponsors, pitching to them, and keeping them happy might be better spent working an extra job, working longer hours at your current job, working on your rally car, etc.

Just some things to think about.

Thanks Carl, i appreciate the feedback/advice.o

I agree that the fastest way to get into stage rally is what you said. It's just my personal preference to not take one big jump. Its not about my level of commitment, as I am committed to the strategy I've put in place...the reasons around 'why' I'm going in the direction I am is for another thread/discussion.

The whole 'club' discussion is about connecting the beginners to the experts. Now, whether you call a beginner a RallyX guy, a TSD guy, an autoX guy, whatever...I don't care.

I happen to help run a RallyX club, so that's why I advocate RallyX. just from my personal experience...the Rally schools I went to all had rallyX type training, and were connected to a local rallyX event. so I guess I just thought that's the most popular way to get started. At no point during either of those schools was anyone also like, 'hey, we're also taking our cars on this random dirt road, for some REAL rally driving'. Of the two I attended (Paul Eklund and the CRS class) Only Paul Eklund offered an 'advanced' rally course, and that requires a caged car, so I was going to rent one, but he didn't have it last year. I hope that changes this year.

I found Tim O'Neil's rally school on my own on the internet, another great step I will take, but its not cheap.

RallyX was almost dead in NorCal last year...I got involved at the organizational level and helped out a lot and now we have a NorCal series AND a SoCal series and its growing. I know Stage Rally is a different beast, but I'm just trying to get involved, connect the two, and hopefully make it easier for new people who are serious about building a rally car, make sure they have a place to go, hang out, get advice, test new parts, whatever. I know to organize a real 'club' you only need 2-3 committed people to lead, the rest will follow. I'm just saying I'm willing to be one of those 2-3 folks in the NorCal area.


Locally, I was thinking if we ran a 'stage rally day'....where we run a rallyX event, have some ACTIVE stage rally guys show up, show us noobs a few tricks, then go out and run some real stage rally roads. I was thinking something like Gorman, where the place has a field big enough to set up cones for proper cone crushing, but then has a LOT of real stage like roads. Maybe pick some of the easier roads, and get permission to gate them off so its just us?

Easier said than done, but its just an idea I have floating around my head. My org has enough budget that we could event pay the stage rally guys to make it worth their time. I dunno, thoughts? If something like this was going on in your local area, would you come?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
> Locally, I was thinking if we ran a 'stage rally
> day'....where we run a rallyX event, have some
> ACTIVE stage rally guys show up, show us noobs a
> few tricks, then go out and run some real stage
> rally roads.

The nice thing about the group I run with is that there's a not insignificant number of current/former stage rallyists. And further, with one exception, they're all 2wd rallyists... and more important than the actual dirt flinging is the after-event beer/barebecue/bull session where we get to hear about what happened at Sno*Drift or Rally WV or Mexico or POR or whatever.

As for rallycross vs. stage rally... I haven't done any stage rallys, if you don't count finding yourself 3 minutes late on a TSD due to calculation error (and I don't, but it was fun catching up ) but I find that rallycross encourages you to be overcautious. You have five or six times on the course to memorize it and try different things instead of one shot before it changes, and you get significant time penalties if you go wide or cut too close in a corner, as opposed to just having to worry about getting back out of the ditch...

So it's entirely different, and the driving style somewhat different, and the car setups quite different. TSD would probably be a better feeder system than rallycross, but again that is just my outside-the-window observation.

I am a rallycross supporter, and one message that I try to get across that it is not autocross-on-dirt and it is definitely not stage rally lite. And it's also definitely not $50 beater blow it up hillbilly hijinks, usually the people who do that come out once or twice, get fed up because they are sooo slooooow, and never come back...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> I went from gravel, to pavement, to wet pavement....
> tagged a tree and learned a lesson

Haha. I saw that on the video. They even told you to cool it through the water too. In the words of the Black Knight, "Tis but a scratch."

Carl S Wrote:
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> "The jump" for you may be to swallow your pride and
> change your lifestyle so that you can divert the
> money needed to fund a rally effort. That may
> entail driving a beater every day, eating out
> never, wearing cheap clothes, quitting drugs (not
> suggesting you're currently on them, its just
> something that lots of people do that costs lots
> of money that could be used for rallying), etc.
> If you cant afford to rally now, but you want to
> rally in the future, you have to realize that
> something has to change.

Yeap. Personally, I dearly love the only new car I ever bought back in 1996 and I even shed a tear the night I pulled the camshafts out to sell them. It breaks my heart to see her dusty in the garage, silently awaiting part out prior to being sold to some fuckwad who I know will rice her out and drive her into the ground.

College was a mistake for me, so the less than $24k I will clear after making my student loan payments this year means I'm also not looking forward to the second job I'm going to have most of this year delivering pizzas in the $500 POS I'm going to snag on Craigslist in order to help fund the build of my Galant. I already miss cable TV, and despite our best intentions, I know my wife isn't going to be happy that I'll be working 60 hours a week or so, but I'm going to make it happen in 2008. (I just have to keep mentioning it so as to reduce the shock when it actually happens.)

Will I be thinking about my Talon, or a shitty second job, or the ugly Geo with the bubbling tint on the windows I daily drive as I feather the throttle around the Perkinsville hairpin sideways for the first time when there won't be any oncoming traffic? I highly doubt it.

As a relative newcomer to things, myself, I can relate the shock and horror that comes when you realize that the North American rally community you had envisioned - where everyone gets to rally and is completely satisfied all the time - is a pipe dream. There are very serious issues to be addressed and there are people here very serious about addressing them. There is drama. There are hidden agendas. But so far, I still feel as if I could call up any bloke on this board, despite any perceived animosity, and get things settled like men. (Which requires a good fart joke now and again.)

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Friends, I don't want to beat to death a subject which actually has NOTHING significant in any way whatsoever with rally and which I am simply not interestd in, I think it was said best by some genius: It's just like wanking off. It may be fun but I don't want to watch my guy friends doing it.

That said you guys are all saying this and that about why its not applicable to anything other than, oddly enough, just driving around in a field.

Every so called "rallycross" I have ever seen have taken place in relatively flat fields. The surface may vary from Grass to gravel base after the top soil is gone to packed or loose dirt.

But one key thing is essentially always present, and its the thing which is VERY SELDOM present when zooming thru the woods: YOU CAN USUALLY SEE at a glance THE ENTIRE CORNER from APPROACH THRU THE EXIT.

In the woods, with all those TREE thingies and BUSH things clogging up the whole woods, we seldom can see the entrances UNTIL WE ARE UPON THEM, and VERY SELDOM CAN WE SEE THE EXITS.

And, as at least theoretically we have not practiced the same open, simple, flat, well marked, well memorized corner we see approaching as we rush up to it in FIRST or (gasp) SECOND gear!!!!! what we are testing when we are driving in the woods is not simple, easy memorization of a handful or turns, and stretching our mental capacities to remember which of the handful of corners this one here is, but rather our most fundemental, deep core driving--and adaptational skills and to some degree our cognitive and reaction skills.

And I think that is why GRAVEL rally is so much more satisfying than even asphalt rally: it requires more uses of more parts of our generally lazy day-to-day brains.
The IR-Regular nature of the surface, the never two of hundreds and hundreds of corners alike, can't see it till NOW!!!(Oh shit!!), the crested roads, in and out of shadows CHALLENGES us MORE and overcoming a HARD challenge is usually more satisfying in a right in the diaphragm way than managing to miss a few orange cones you can plainly see..................................................as you roll up to them.

Now some of you know I spent a couple of decades racing moto-cross all over Europe and even down to South Africa but only some of you locally know that it was the woods that was always the real love, the moto-cross as a Profession was just a good way to get paid to see the world in a way I would never have otherwise been able to. Now only when I retired and came back to USA in my early 30s was I in position to do long woods events while going to The Evergreen State College in Olympia.
Now to 99% of you guys, aside from a discreet small headlight and taillight, you wouldn't notice the differences between my last moto-cross bike when I was doing Internationals, and my enduro bike when I was just playing Enduros here.

There was a larger tank, taller 5th and 6th gears in the box, 14x52 counter and rear sprokets vs the 13x53, different shim pack in the rear shocks and softer upper springs in the forks and slightly lighter oil in the forks, nothing too big.

The big difference was this practice a corner 100 times vs instantly react as a new threat, a root, a hole, a huge fuckin horse shit pie, a downed tree just behind the tree you just dodged at 24mph.
Yeah 24mph. Wasn't I just flipping Subie Yuppieboy shit for, amongst other things, the silly slow speeds?
Well 24mph average in the woods on a trail about 35" wide appears so much more intense because of the nearness of the things flashing past you eyes in the peripheral vision (that is the primary thing the brain uses to signal the perception of speed, and hence to give you da willys when it starts going fast.). And you wanna bet that it looked and FELT fast to snick it into 4th on a trail that narrow??

The point is that for training to be useful, something other than mere public masturbation, and mere material to try and brag and impress people who don't know what a wank fest it is, it must tend to mimic some aspect of what the REAL job demends, and mimic it very closely.

Interestingly, in the 60s there was lots of cross over btween cross and enduro guys, less so in the 70s, specialisation had begun, and that was in Europe at the International level. In the US there was by the early 80s virtually no crossover, and if a enduro rider got drug out to a moto-cross by me to "Teach them some aggressiveness", they did rather poorly, they could not sharpen or hone a corner or learn the single most critical lesson in all racing: BRAKING.

And watch the other classes, it was as clear when watching one rider drop his bike in a corner and watching the next and the next and the next and the next and the next riders hold their line and notice and do nothing till they ran into the pile of bikles, that moto-crossers had virtually no flexiblity of response to changed situation.

I think people would be better play ping pong than doing so called "rally-ex".

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Jon Burke Wrote:
> OH LURCH....man, I would love to tag along on one
> of your 'training weekends', what exactly do you
> do and where? I'd be willing to travel to your
> location and rent whatever I need to if it means
> faster driving, 1 on 1 instruction and just a lot
> more experience.
>
> Jon Burke
> KI6LSW
>


Training locations tend to be secret and not talked about. At least ours are.

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

Jon Burke Wrote:
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>
> anyway, the whole point of the thread was a 'rally
> club'...and I'm like, hey, I'm part of a club with
> members that one day, want to be stage rally
> guys...so lets not find a way to get together,
> drink beers IN PERSON, chat, ask questions, and
> then maybe if you stage rally guys are really
> nice, will tell us HOW TO GET MORE EXPERIENCE
> BEYOND BABY RALLYCROSS COURSES. <----THIS is
> the issue I'm having....because right now, other
> than +$4,000 at Tim O'Neils, I'm a little stuck.
>
> In the next 18 months, as I try to make the leap
> between my rallyX experience and real stage rally,
> it would be nice to make a club or something
> SEMI-formal that others can follow...because even
> if I'm successful and make the jump and become a
> good/bad/whatever stage rally guy, what's the
> point if the next guy has all the same challenges
> and has to do it all over again? that's the
> pattern I see (maybe I'm blind, I"m just saying
> its what I see) and that's what I'm trying to
> change. Honestly, I would think someone with my
> level of energy, interest, and commitment would
> get a lot more support and direction of the people
> with all the experience and knowledge but don't
> have the energy. Cause I totally get it, you've
> been doing this forever, you have your own lives,
> and you don't always have time to answer every
> stupid noob question (trust me, I get sick of
> seeing some of the same old quesitons on the suby
> forum I'm on too).

Hey Jon,

Don't let yourself get stuck. No one has to go to any sort of rally school. Beyond rally-x, or a fresh start in the sport, there is NOTHING wrong with moving directly to a stage rally...NOTHING. In fact, guess how most folks get going in stage rally?!?! Being in a club may or may not get that for you; getting directly into a stage rally WILL.

I won't knock any form of entry into the sport. Rally-x is fine, clubs are fine, rally schools are fine. Sooner later, the leap take has to place however. How you get there is your choice, but in the absence of any of these direct entry works too.

If you are not getting the info and answers you need, you are not talking to the right folks. I can see where it is tempting to think that getting on the web with like minded folks could be a path to knowledge. But experience suggests that you are better hooking up with someone willing to share their experience and knowledge.

Just so you will know, I went to one stage rally, got hooked, and started buildgin a car with the advice from a fellw sailor in the USNavy who knew more about rally and motorsports. I was 300 miles from the nearest rallier. I was lucky to not make to many errors and rally car buidling was simpler then. But anyone can follow the same path. So, maybe what is really needed is a buddy or mentor system; pick someone in the sport who you like and ask them if you can pick their brains.

I am all the way out east in VA, but I am always ready to answer questions, particularly from new folks. I like to see new people get involved. And since you and I are hams, we may be able to connect on that level. You and anyone can free feel to make contact any time. I may be slow to answer sometimes but it's becasue I am in another state on a job, not reluctant to answer. I may not be your perfect ideal of who you want to emulate rallying or even in personalty, etc., but I'll sure give all the help I can. And guess what? There are a bunch of folks out there willing to help; just get it off the forums and into a private correspondence. You would be amazed how much many folks will open up and share if you just indicate that you believe in their vaulable experience and you truly want to hear it.
>
> But when you're sport is hurting....on the brink
> of dying off completely, and a guy walks into the
> room, raises his hand and says, 'hey, I want to do
> what you're doing, so far I've only been doing
> RALLYX, what else should I do, how can I help?'

Just one thing I will quarrel with.....rally is not dying, never has been, never will be unless cars and gas go away. And then we will rally horses. It won't die 'cuz there is a lot more rally than flashy pictures and some big business dream. It is about some level of personal challenge and adventure that few of us ever see anywhere else. THAT element will never change. I have been involved since '77 and rally is not dying.

>
> I DON'T know what that solution is, that's why I'm
> posting on here, SS, and I can tell you right now,
> all the wanna-be stage rally guys on DirtyImpreza
> are watching that thread intently to see where all
> this goes. BTW, that's a national forum, so your
> opinions/thoughts/etc are all being broadcast to a
> LOT of potential stage rally competitors.
>
Bring 'em on!! I ain't a Subie guy so can't help there, but you can pick each others brains for Subie tricks already. Building cages, directing folks to the right resoucrces, etc., that's what a good mentor can and will do.

Regards,
Mark B. NM9S
PM me here to get in touch; I dare ya!

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> If you found your OWN club, keep it going for
> awhile, get a bunch of memebers, and then present
> it to NASA or RA, they make take interest in it.

I've long thought that there should be some kind "Rally Competitor's Club/Union/Group" that was sanctioning body independent. I had this idea before there were two sanctioning bodies, and I think it's just as valid as before. I imagined this group keeping info and stats about rallies so you could get the real scoop on what went on there, in addition to representing to the SBs the competitors' interests.

Maybe it sounds strange coming from someone who's involved in the NASA Rally Sport sanctioning body, but there it is.

Cheers,
Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

> As a relative newcomer to things, myself, I can
> relate the shock and horror that comes when you
> realize that the North American rally community
> you had envisioned - where everyone gets to rally
> and is completely satisfied all the time - is a
> pipe dream. There are very serious issues to be
> addressed and there are people here very serious
> about addressing them. There is drama. There are
> hidden agendas.

Drama, hidden agendas, politics, money, friends, enemies, history, double crosses, lovers, victories, promises, yes, US Rally has them all.

Having been exposed to it, though, has really opened my eyes to something else: the same thing must be going on EVERYWHERE. Water Polo? I bet their arguing about national series regulations. Speedskating? Series sponsor problems. Darts? European spec darts versus domestic. Women's Rollerderby? Entry fees too high. Model Airplanes? Insurance costs. Everywhere I look now I can sense these little undercurrents of all the same stuff that's happening with us.

And THAT is amazing.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Having been exposed to it, though, has really
> opened my eyes to something else: the same thing
> must be going on EVERYWHERE. Water Polo? I bet
> their arguing about national series regulations.
> Speedskating? Series sponsor problems. Darts?
> European spec darts versus domestic. Women's
> Rollerderby? Entry fees too high. Model Airplanes?
> Insurance costs. Everywhere I look now I can sense
> these little undercurrents of all the same stuff
> that's happening with us.
>
> And THAT is amazing.
>

Anders I've got fifty cents in a bet that says one does not pay over a grand to enter a water polo event that one likely spends similar time competing in as an RA event.

Those who read of this who are pulling the strings at RA and who are organizers... Read up... I will not run an RA event due to the obscene cost + the requirement of H&N + other 'solutions in search of problems' in cage requirements ect.
Others have clearly stated that the rules are currently such that they will put their efforts elsewhere.
I could spend a lot of time flying for the money and effort I am putting into my rallycar.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

If someone attends a rally-ex event and it leads them here, where they can learn what is really involved in true rally, then rally-ex is not without merit. The driving techniques may not be the same, the effort required my not be remotely close, but I can't dismiss anything which might inspire a potential rallyista to want to know more.

Newbies (myself included) are always going to have to come to terms with misconceptions and illusions of grandeur, but we are fortunate that there is a place where people can speak their minds about all things rally. Us FNGs appreciate the patience of the veterans in dealing with our overzealousness.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

haha... just becomes a PITA when your club has 80 members, and when it comes time for business meetings and votes, not enough of the membership show up to have a proper quorum.

If you ever do make it up... even outside of regular scheduled meeting times... try out the meeting place... the Souvlaki Pit has some really good food... get the Souvlaki dinner! *drool*

Thanks Mark! You'll get a PM soon. I'm traveling this week for work as well (Denver....rough! haha) and get back next week.

Jon

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

dtompsett Wrote:
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> the Souvlaki Pit has some really
> good food... get the Souvlaki dinner! *drool*


Souvlaki. Delicious, imo.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Anders Green Wrote:

> I've long thought that there should be some kind
> "Rally Competitor's Club/Union/Group" that was
> sanctioning body independent.

Me too. Even Nicky Grist thought we could benefit from such an organization on his second to last visit, but many rally organizers see it as a threat. Kudos to you for seeing it as a positive influence.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan