Healthy 2WD field at Sandblast

starion887 Wrote:
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> Anybody got any good
> leads on 13" and 14" knobbies?
>
Kumho makes a 29" Road Venture MT that fits a 14" wheel. Or at least they did until very recently, because its not listed on tire rack's website anymore. 29" is pretty tall, but maybe they'd work good for deep sand/mud because you'd get some extra ground clearance running them.

Was thinking about getting some to fit on my street car scirocco, but I dont think I could get it up high enough without doing something major, and they probably wouldnt help the mpg.

It's a little late now, but another option might be the new Silverstone mudders.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Saabfarm Wrote:
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> The escort Gt was running really knobby
> snow tires at first but after 2 flats on 1 stage
> they switched back to rally tires and said the
> difference wasn't really noticable. Correct me if
> I'm wrong but I don't think any 2wd cars with a
> proper diff got stuck?


Hey Luke,

Thanks for the note. The Escort GT had Cooper WeatherMaster ST's (or whateever they call them now). They are not knobby tires in the real sense; they are an ice tire with a normal amount of blocks, thousands of sipes, have a very normal passenger car sidewall (i.e., not rugged).

Switching from those to a regular rally tire might well not have made any difference. I can tell you from a direct switch from a similar tire to a real knobby tire (Mud Terrains) that it DOES make a big difference. The picture posted of the Kuhmo's is what I am speaking of: very blocky, open tread with blocks skipped on the edges.

And we ran for years on open diffs and never got stuck. The cars were lighter and had good ground clearance. So open vs. LSD is not the key to avoid 'stuckage' IMO. With the Starion and a very good plate LSD, it made no diff, as the ground clearance was not there, and the car is very heavy (3150 lbs w/o us inside). Seen plenty of other cars with and without LSD get stuck there. I'll agree that LSD makes an OVERALL difference at the event, but not for the Sand Trap.

For not getting stuck, it does not seem to matter much if you have LSD or not, as the problem with the Sand Trap is that you go through a deep low area and then climb up through loose sand going either direction. If you keep some minimum momentum, you make it. If not, you sink in, get high centered, and that's that. For AWD cars, they easily keep the momentum, even with low ground clearance.

I just see folks' dissappointment when they get stuck on Sand Trap, and am trying to figure how to advise people to a better car set-up. My current thinking is as said before:
- jack up the car
- use knobby tires
- lighter is better (hard to change though) and heavy cars do make it if they keep the momentum

Regards,
Mark B.

Trying to help here, cause it must be really heartbreaking to get stuck.

2 minute intervals so the likelihood of a traffic jam is reduced?

Flotation in sand is the key to maintaining momentum.
I've driven for YEARS on deep sand on motorcycles and although we had real knobbies that make the BFG Mud terrains look like slicks we preferred wider tire front and rear for pure sand and man did I do a lot of pure deep sand events ( about 1/3 the tracks in the lower 1/3 of Sweden are sand, and about 85% of the tracks North of Stockhom are sand, and I was often Northwards bound for YEARS.
Some suggested that I was beoming a "Sand Specialist" cause of the huge quadriceps I had and later when I was working full time riding, guys who could kick my ass bad, like lap me on a rocky earth track in 35 minutes, I could be reeling in and see them maybe 3-4 places ahead on a sand track. Tee Hee)

We used knobbies but relatively speaking, we had a lot more power and with a chain, direct drive 100% "lock up" but that didn't make so much difference IF YOU DIDN'T get UP ON TOP of the SAND.

So speed, wider tires for flotation and momentum.

LOOK AHEAD!!!!, work the edges, don't go where somebody else IS.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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> Trying to help here, cause it must be really
> heartbreaking to get stuck.
>
> 2 minute intervals so the likelihood of a traffic
> jam is reduced?
>
> Flotation in sand is the key to maintaining
> momentum.
> I've driven for YEARS on deep sand on motorcycles
> and although we had real knobbies that make the
> BFG Mud terrains look like slicks we preferred
> wider tire front and rear for pure sand and man
> did I do a lot of pure deep sand events ( about
> 1/3 the tracks in the lower 1/3 of Sweden are
> sand, and about 85% of the tracks North of
> Stockhom are sand, and I was often Northwards
> bound for YEARS.
> Some suggested that I was beoming a "Sand
> Specialist" cause of the huge quadriceps I had and
> later when I was working full time riding, guys
> who could kick my ass bad, like lap me on a rocky
> earth track in 35 minutes, I could be reeling in
> and see them maybe 3-4 places ahead on a sand
> track. Tee Hee)
>
> We used knobbies but relatively speaking, we had
> a lot more power and with a chain, direct drive
> 100% "lock up" but that didn't make so much
> difference IF YOU DIDN'T get UP ON TOP of the
> SAND.
>
> So speed, wider tires for flotation and momentum.
>
> LOOK AHEAD!!!!, work the edges, don't go where
> somebody else IS.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


When is this madness going to end? Enough with your motor-x stories!
You wanna get kicked off this forum too???
Since i am a moderator i wont blink an eye

John, what you think of that last PM?

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

turoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > So speed, wider tires for flotation and
> momentum.
> >
> > LOOK AHEAD!!!!, work the edges, don't go
> where
> > somebody else IS.
> >
> >
>
>
> When is this madness going to end? Enough with
> your motor-x stories!

Yeah can't have little Eli Gilbert crying more here like he does everywhere else.

> You wanna get kicked off this forum too???
> Since i am a moderator i wont blink an eye


Don't taze me Bro!
>
> John, what you think of that last PM?

Go for it!!!

>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

How about these for the sand tires and 15" wheels?

29.5" diam, 7.8" cross section, 6 ply, $90 each.
http://store.coker.com/prod/700-15-firestone-military-ndcc.html

Hey John, I thought about floatation too, and tried it. Narrower Mud Terrain's were definitely faster. The disadvantage of wide tires comes when you realize that the Sand Trap is just one short section of the course at SB. Much of the rest of the course, you are pushing over a limited depth of sand that is an inch to maybe 6"-8" deep. It seems that a narrower tire gives less resistance as it pushes less sand aside (like moderate snow depths).

Hey Carl, Who can mount 29.5" OD tires on a rally car? But it WOULD give good ground clearance. What is the highest rally tire profile out there?

I am more and more thinking that folks need to cut every 3rd block out of the edge rows of tread blocks on a standard rally tire.

Regards,
Mark B,

A 65cm tire is 25.6", a 29 you'd need 1.7 more inches above, in front, and in back. Not too much bigger, the hard part is clearance while turning under compression. That may require some clearancing. Plus they do look a little goofy

But if thats what it takes to finish, why not!?

And after doing some more digging, Super Swamper makes some 14" tires too, in 27" and 28" varieties. Though they're pretty wide, like 8". But it'd be fun.
My UP roots must be showing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2008 08:28PM by Carl S.

The snow tires we were running actually felt better than the gravels. They are pretty open tread design are taller than my gravel tires. They have done well for us at sandblast before and I had a bunch of them but we probably wont use them again after a flat 3-4 miles from the finish of stage 1, one near the end of 4, and one at the beginning of 5 (14 mile stage finished on a wheel and bolted on our flat spare for transit). Tires with air in them are always better.

We also have open diff and did not get stuck but it was close. The car made it through the past two years as well when we were further back in the pack and had to deal w/ a traffic jam on sand trap. last year we used mark's method of going up the bank a couple times to get aroud stuck cars.

Ok, so I've been a little bored.
Found some more tires, better tires, cheaper tires. Check it:
Cooper Discoverer LT
195/75/14
25.5" diameter, nearly the same as a 65cm rally tire.
6 ply, Load Range C. Could take a lot of abuse on a little car.
$88 each from here (first place I found them): https://www.tiresavings.com/tireShop.php?action=findMan2&manufacturer=Cooper&tirename=Discoverer+LT&season=

Those could be fun, and I do need new tires come summer time...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2008 02:07PM by Carl S.

Cool Carl. For Sandblast, I would be doing some serious cutting out of the edge blocks. I need to stop at a local Cooper dealer to check the sidewalls.

Thanks!
Mark B.

I've got a friend that found some pretty nifty tires at a Farm and Fleet (or Fleet Farm, depending on what area of the state you're in..) for 10 bucks a piece. He used them on his 89 civic for rallyX, and they seemed to grip like crazy in the dirt.

They might not be available over the internet, but I think that if you check out implement dealers (aka farm equipment) and places that do repair on such items, you might find some pretty good things, like tubes, boots (for tires, not for feet), and tires made for traction in muddy fields.

They very well might be too big for a lot of rally cars, but they might be able to order them in the size you want, and for pretty reasonable prices, too. From my searching of the internets, it seems like most of the online tire shops don't really carry these types of tires, so you're forced to actually use the telephone and drive to places and talk to people.

I don't know how often recaps are done to tires anymore, or if they'd be good for rally purposes, but I use a 30-year-old set on the back of the RallyBuickâ„¢, and have had absolute fun with them. Not quite as much voids in the center of the tread as I'd like, but the edges I feel more than make up for it:


It was fun throwing dirt at the corner workers, too....



--sarge

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---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

Wow, Sarge!
That looks like a direct copy of the Pirelli SG35 Rally tire.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Got a set of those on my flatfender Willys. It was the first thing I purchased. From Coker even.

Carl S Wrote:
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> How about these for the sand tires and 15"
> wheels?
>
> 29.5" diam, 7.8" cross section, 6 ply, $90
> each.
>

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain