FRONT or REAR Wheeel Drive (or all!)

Forgive me if this has been done to death, but JVL has (is trying to) convince me that RWD is the only true way to go. I agree. BUT... No one makes a good RWD car any more. Which means you have to find an old piece of crap and try to REbuild it as opposed to finding an (easier *cheaper*) FWD car to build. Which is my current dilemma. Old Fiat 131. Rust. Electrical nightmare. Make all parts from scratch (fun!). Everybody loves it. OR relatively new focus. Stiff body. Bolt on parts. Weak suspension design. Boring. Just as fast but not as fun. Can drive it to work.

Option #3 is convert the focus to RWD or AWD. But then I don't qualify for spec

I've learned how to drive both ways, and IMHO being comfortable is the biggest factor. I'm not putting a/c in the Fiat.

I like fwd, but if I had it to do over again I would go rwd.

Whats wrong with an XR or Volvo?

They are old so to say but cheap, parts are everywhere and if you get a non east coast car that is not covered in rust then you'll put just as much work into it as a newer car. I've done rust work and its really nothing compared with all the time your going to spend fitting and welding in a cage.

Or you could be a nutjob like me, rebuild a 30 year old FWD Saab. Worst of both worlds :-)

---

Per

Beware rust breeding cars...logbooks aren't issued if the shell won't warrant it.


Despite the current resurgance in RWD philosophy, less than 20% of the RWD competitors were fast or exciting back in the day ( when that's all we had ). Burress, Bottles, Tennis, Stow... all very fast , exciting FWD local competitors.

Lou Beck has over a year in with his Focus, no suspension failures. Started on AGXs ( sketchy at best ) now on HotBits ( working well ). Great results at Olympus with a very stock engine.

Don't get stuck in an impossible, forever build. By the time you finish, entry fees will be thousands or roads won't be available.

Sube/DSM ...FWD,AWD,RWD..pick your poison. 110hp to 400 plus..easy as pie. Parts as close as the local spectator area ... RA is discussing a bulletin to allow this is G2/G5..even though they "hate" regional competitors

Mustang, RX7, 240SX, Volvo ( very plentiful in the NW ) all can be made to work with varying degrees of difficulty. Lots of good options to be had. I doubt Fiat is one of them.

heymagic Wrote:
> Sube/DSM ...FWD,AWD,RWD..pick your poison. 110hp
> to 400 plus..easy as pie.

Yup. Lots of options there. We had at least one competitor try this out last year when NRS legalized it in time for Rally West Virginia.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sube/DSM ...FWD,AWD,RWD..pick your poison. 110hp
> to 400 plus..easy as pie. Parts as close as the
> local spectator area ... RA is discussing a
> bulletin to allow this is G2/G5..even though they
> "hate" regional competitors

To allow what Gene?

RA doesn't hate regional competitors. They just don't seem to care about them too much as an organization. The organizers and people definitely do however. I'm still waiting to see if they'll ever post regional results on the main webpage.

---

Grant Hughes

BeKwik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forgive me if this has been done to death, but JVL
> has (is trying to) convince me that RWD is the
> only true way to go.

DOOOOOoooooooooooooOOOOOD, I'm not saying it's either ONLY or TRUE,

It's the total price for a car that is fun and give you some potential AND the critical thing, the thing that tips trhe balance in my book, is the relative easy methods for making stuff stronger.

See? WE can MAKE stuff to make your Fiat stronger.

With your Fucus the only solution is to BUY, and then we see what stuff costs and we see it's easily 4-6 times the cost for some parts such as:
Final Drive
LSD
Gearkit


And there are no known answers about future upgrades if it turns out the poor axles and CV or heaven forbid, the wheel bearing size is too puny.



I agree. BUT... No one makes
> a good RWD car any more. Which means you have to
> find an old piece of crap and try to REbuild it as
> opposed to finding an (easier *cheaper*) FWD car
> to build.

Look, William "Steel Solutions"* has posted a place to find cheap whole cars, and I know some you could snag to buiuld for cheap, but you are a competitive guyor you would want to build a competition car, you'd be happy playing rally-ex, so while we know we can pick up SHELLS for cheap, we don't know where we can buy FINAL DRIVE, clutch plate LSD, and a reliable gearset.

And there's not much you can do about the SIZE of the car, which means it's gonna WEIGH a fair bit, which means you will need LOTS more power than MY car weighing 2015 lbs----just to be in the exact same place power to weight wise.
And remember, I have 5.45:1 final drive.
You know what that does for acceleration, don't you?

Hmmmmm 20000 lbs and 5.45 vs 2700 lbs and maybe 4.1, hmmmmmmmmmmmm




Which is my current dilemma. Old Fiat
> 131. Rust. Electrical nightmare. Make all parts
> from scratch (fun!). Everybody loves it.

OR
> relatively new focus. Stiff body. Bolt on parts.
> Weak suspension design. Boring. Just as fast but
> not as fun. Can drive it to work.
>
> Option #3 is convert the focus to RWD or AWD. But
> then I don't qualify for spec

We've been around this, and as nobody else in the entire West is built to "Spec"
probably because as large as the car is and as inevitably heavy, the "spec" is too restrictive and the cars aren't that much fun and won't go more or less like say our current 2wd terrorist Tom Buress without a LOT more power and A MUCH SHORTER final drive.

Another option is simply build something more COMMON than the Fiat, something you can find 8 to 11 at the Pull-a-part in Lynwood every time you go. Or that you could scare up a couple of RUST FREE, UN-fucked with electrical, solid and KNOWN COMPETITIVE cars for say $400.


See? there's a solid financial reason I suggest the 240 Volvo and the Xratty.
Plenty of rust free, un fucked with shells, big enough TURBO motors you needn't hop them up UNLESS YOU WANT TO.
EASY stronger gearbox, easy stronger driveline junk, that applies to your Fiat, but fresh unrusty un fucked with wiring, well that doesn't.
But it does to plenty of 240s and Xratties.
>
> I've learned how to drive both ways, and IMHO
> being comfortable is the biggest factor. I'm not
> putting a/c in the Fiat.

And just forget the 4wd stuff, it's a money pit 3-4 times worse.
Unless you want to buy all my Cossie 4x4 stuff and shove it in a Xratty. SPARE gearbox already on the shelf.

ALL CAN work good as the other
the biggest difference is the FINAL COST.

RWD is the best dollar spent to LAUGH RETURN ratio over the long term.

Andf that IS what we're after: lots of laughs.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:

> ALL CAN work good as the other
> the biggest difference is the FINAL COST.
>
> RWD is the best dollar spent to LAUGH RETURN ratio
> over the long term.
>
> Andf that IS what we're after: lots of laughs.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Really? I thought we were alle doing this for the money, glory, fame and to have a ton of ladies running after us at every service stop??? Damn!

Seriously, that' one great post John! It's because of posts like that one that I bought my volvo. If it can finaly get here I'll be happy!

But on the other hahd, posts like that one makes me want a shorter final drive, a closer ratio gearbox and a shorter ratio steering rack... Even before I actually drove the car.

Back to the topic... I used to have an open class AWD DSM. It was a lot of fun, but the car was not very competitive except at rallye-cross, but that was mainly because there was only 2-3 other guys who knew how to drive! A friend (who I know is a better driver than me) was not too far behind in his P3 (stock) Neon! He was in front of a few subaru's and DSM. Most of the time, I was the fastest non-subaru, that was a small victory in itself.

I'm now in the process of buying a RWD Volvo. Why? Because it is cheaper and will be as much fun as the DSM. My goal is to go play in the wood, get the car sideway, scare myself and the co-driver a few time, get to the end of the rally and then be happy that it cost me much less than the open class guys to have at least as much fun as them!

You can't beat the fun/$ ratio of an old RWD car.

---

Francois

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sube/DSM ...FWD,AWD,RWD..pick your poison.
> 110hp
> > to 400 plus..easy as pie. Parts as close as
> the
> > local spectator area ... RA is discussing a
> > bulletin to allow this is G2/G5..even though
> they
> > "hate" regional competitors
>
> To allow what Gene?
>
> RA doesn't hate regional competitors. They just
> don't seem to care about them too much as an
> organization. The organizers and people
> definitely do however. I'm still waiting to see
> if they'll ever post regional results on the main
> webpage.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

Tongue in cheek post Grant...I'm the Western Regional tech supervisor for RA...

RA allows AWD/FWD in G2/G5 but only FWD/AWD to RWD in Open. A bulletin is being studied as we speak to allow the G2/G5 builds from AWD cars.

Gene

BeKwik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to build. Which is my current dilemma. Old Fiat
> 131. Rust. Electrical nightmare. Make all parts
> from scratch (fun!). Everybody loves it. OR

A Fiat 131? COME ON, you know a X1/9 is the only sensible solution!

I was actually going to say how often to 131s even come up for sale.. but there's 2 on ebaymotors right now.

Can you still get fenders for these things?

Other than not being a volvo 240, how is the 131 significantly different?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tongue in cheek post Grant...I'm the Western
> Regional tech supervisor for RA...
>
> RA allows AWD/FWD in G2/G5 but only FWD/AWD to RWD
> in Open. A bulletin is being studied as we speak
> to allow the G2/G5 builds from AWD cars.

Ahhh! I get what you mean now. The / mean conversion to. Technically they only allow the AWD/FWD if there was a version of the car sold as a FWD. So like an 02 WRX converted to FWD couldn't legally run in Group 5 currently. But it's awesome to hear they are considering changing to rule to allow conversions to run in 2WD classes.

---

Grant Hughes

For the reasons you posted (cheaper, newer, parts avail...) Id go FWD. Infact, if I could redo my car and all, I'd go FWD.

RWD will be fun, but I think I would do better off with a gti/golf, toyota matrix (I *think* this may be the platform for the S2000 car as its an aussy euro spec corolla), mazda 3 or focus. Besides, all those cars look cooler! haha

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I want to see someone build an old Porsche.....I thought Jens is/was a Porsche guy, yes?

I know you all think I'm a subaru brat (ok...well, maybe I am)...but my first real sports car was a 1980 911SC. That car was FUN. easy to work on too. I sold it back in '06 and I'm still pissed at myself for it. THAT's my REAL dream rally project.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the reasons you posted (cheaper, newer, parts
> avail...) Id go FWD. Infact, if I could redo my
> car and all, I'd go FWD.
>
> RWD will be fun, but I think I would do better off
> with a gti/golf, toyota matrix (I *think* this may
> be the platform for the S2000 car as its an aussy
> euro spec corolla), mazda 3 or focus. Besides, all
> those cars look cooler! haha


Timm you sure seem to have problems understanding some things.

Your Corolla weighs less, can accept EASY engine swaps as upgrades, you can shove in a variety of gearboxes for cost of an adapter plate and driveshaft shortening,
You already have an alternate rear axle.

You can do NONE of ANY of those things on any of the cars you mentioned all of which are HEAVIER and have trannies that cost MULTIPLE THOUSANDS for stuff, if anything is available at all.

HEAVY cars with relatively low power and stockish transmissions ARE NOT REALLY FUN
because they are slow.

You have an excellent car, build it and stick with it.
>
> Feisty Peacock?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

We have seen Porkers in Rally.

I've had a lot of fun with my Volvo 240.

One need not make it as sick as I've made my car to have a lot of fun.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun