Ringer hit by car at STPR - NBD I Guess.

randyzimmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about sitting on a bank with no triangle and a
> car dead in the road?
> We'll try that and see if it sticks.

I think there's a rule in the book exempting anybody who is whatever is considered "The Big Boy" from troubling themselves with such minor trivialities as triangles.

What's the current RA rulebook wording for the display of triangles?
What's the wording on obligation to display "OK" signs?

What's the wording on obligation of following cars to stop if they see no "OK" and report?

How many cars 'tween the Pastrami/Ringa and Kemp?

Sounds like mass rules violation at that blunt end of the stick.

Must be massive fines and protests and appeals. 8(

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> What's the current RA rulebook wording for the display of triangles?

Haven't I posted enough here in the last couple of days? Then you go and post
this, begging me to respond!

BTW, John, a Bulletin that fixes the MTC In problem that we discussed has been
written and OK'ed. Just waiting for it to get forwarded to the RA web guys.

One triangle must be displayed within 30 seconds of the car coming to a stop. If
it is determined that the car will not be continuing, all of the remaining
triangles must be placed, including one on the roof. They must be placed on the
same side of the road as the car and far enough up the road to give adequate
warning to subsequent competitors. They must be removed when the scene is cleared.

> What's the wording on obligation to display "OK" signs?

"If a competitor has crashed and is not visible from the stage road, or leaves
the stage road, and does not require medical assistance, they must show the OK
sign."

Addition instructions on triangle and OK/Red Cross sign usage may come from event
officials during the drivers meeting.

> What's the wording on obligation of following cars
> to stop if they see no "OK" and report?

"If an accident has occurred and the occupants are still in the car, triangles
have not been placed and no sign is displayed, the first car on the scene must
stop, evaluate the situation, and if necessary display the Red Cross ..."

As above, event officials may give additional instruction.

> How many cars 'tween the Pastrami/Ringa and Kemp?
>
> Sounds like mass rules violation at that blunt end of the stick.

Why? Sounds like Travis and Derek were out of the car.

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If
> it is determined that the car will not be
> continuing, all of the remaining
> triangles must be placed, including one on the
> roof.

Oh boy, I can't believe you made this so easy for me. What if there is not enough room between the roof and the ground to fit a triangle? Hmmm?

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to stop if they see no "OK" and report?
>
> "If an accident has occurred and the occupants are
> still in the car, triangles
> have not been placed and no sign is displayed, the
> first car on the scene must
> stop, evaluate the situation, and if necessary
> display the Red Cross ..."

AH! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
I sink those italicized words are new additions from as I recall them
>
> As above, event officials may give additional
> instruction.
>
> > How many cars 'tween the Pastrami/Ringa and
> Kemp?
> >
> > Sounds like mass rules violation at that
> blunt end of the stick.
>
> Why? Sounds like Travis and Derek were out of the
> car.

Were there no triangles?

Then I guess it was alright for whoever to hit them.

Is there exact wording that says you can't?
>
> alan
>
Alan, in your opinion, knowing how super-gossipy rally folks are in the Intra-web, why do you think there's not a single peep about this at that other place, you know the one where ALL THE NEWS WE DECIDE TO PRINT is the norm?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

> Alan, in your opinion, knowing how super-gossipy
> rally folks are in the Intra-web, why do you think
> there's not a single peep about this at that other
> place, you know the one where ALL THE NEWS WE
> DECIDE TO PRINT is the norm?
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Because the people that seemingly live for drama prefer to play in this sandbox?

Interestingly enough in the video of Bartram's flop of a roll you can hear one of the drivers or the volunteers screaming to get the triangles out as quick as possible.

More interesting is considering the fact that Block/Gelsomino didn't stay on scene. I am not meaning to imply anything as I believe the version of the events as stated by Alex but given the suspicion of some actions by SRT-USA in the past by people more prone to conspiracy theories I can very much see how some following cars would believe that #43 was still attempting to finish the stage at speed. Then again, if the Red Cross was necessary to display it would seem that it was also necessary to ensure that following vehicles be appropriately warned of the blockage.

If Ringer and Pastrana were not prepared to adequately notify later vehicles by displaying triangles then it seems as though #43 should have stayed on scene allowing the second vehicle to go to the radio point after dropping off their extinguisher. This is under the presumption that Ringer was infact struck by a vehicle attempting to "thread the needle" past the #199. Of course, shouldn't the red cross have been displayed if the stage was to be canceled due to the situation thereby eliminating the need for a car to "thread the needle" at a speed sufficient enough to cause bodily injury?

This is an interesting series of scenarios, someone some where clearly screwed up...

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tipo158 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > If
> > it is determined that the car will not be
> > continuing, all of the remaining
> > triangles must be placed, including one on
> the
> > roof.
>
> Oh boy, I can't believe you made this so easy for
> me. What if there is not enough room between the
> roof and the ground to fit a triangle? Hmmm?


Now that there is funny....

I've never eneded up on my roof, but have landed on the side twice. Would have needed magnetic triangles to place on the roof. Of course one time the roof wasn't visable from the road anyway...

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> > "If an accident has occurred and the occupants are still in the car,
> > triangles have not been placed and no sign is displayed, the first car
> > on the scene must stop, evaluate the situation, and if necessary display
> > the Red Cross ..."
>
> AH! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
> I sink those italicized words are new additions from as I recall them

The same wording appears in my 2001 SCCA rulebook.

> > > Sounds like mass rules violation at that blunt end of the stick.
> >
> > Why? Sounds like Travis and Derek were out of the car.
>
> Were there no triangles?

Were there triangles? I had not heard that. If they didn't get triangles up, then I think that is serious and someone should get a talking to.

> Then I guess it was alright for whoever to hit them.
>
> Is there exact wording that says you can't?

Well, that would not be very unsportmanslike behavior!

> Alan, in your opinion, knowing how super-gossipy
> rally folks are in the Intra-web, why do you think
> there's not a single peep about this at that other
> place, you know the one where ALL THE NEWS WE
> DECIDE TO PRINT is the norm?

There was mention of this on SS. It is the middle of the "STPR Talk" thread.

alan

According to the SS posts, Travis rolled and Derek got clipped on the leg by a subsequent car. Nothing about triangles and OK signs. The stage was Red Crossed and most competitors were assigned the same stage time.

Since cars that started behind Travis were scored, the Red Cross must have been thrown when Derek got clipped.

If the start order of that stage was as was indicated by the Seeded Draw list and the Speed Factor based start order, four cars that started behind Travis were scored (L'Estage, MJ, Sarasin and whoever scored the time assigned to everyone else). Of course, the start order might have been different by stage 4.

> > >
> > > Why? Sounds like Travis and Derek were
> out of the car.
> >
> > Were there no triangles?
>
> Were there triangles? I had not heard that. If
> they didn't get triangles up, then I think that is
> serious and someone should get a talking to.

SRT USA can't get a talking to, because they're still on double-secret probation for some unspecified unsportsmanlike behavior that we forgot to continue speculating about (I heard it was for throwing the red cross because of drunk bears snowmobiling at STPR without a spill kit or HANS).

If they were found in violation of some rule while on double-secret probation, the team would have to be suspended from the series, the house of cards would collapse and Jens would win a free Prius thanks to a bet he made with Spitzner and Havir over how long the series would remain viable.

This should probably be in Rumours and Damn Lies.

Heh, heh, heh.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

tipo158 Wrote:
...There was mention of this on SS. It is the middle
> of the "STPR Talk" thread.
>
> alan
>
Yeah, I put it there thinking all it needed to get going was a little push.
Papa Joe chastised me for being negative.
Alex came up with a clarification that escapes any logic I can come up with.
Getchel smoothed it over and that was about it.

Then, the PMs and e-mails started coming and compared a lot to the accounts I got on Sunday, not so much to Alex's (whom I really like a lot and respect terribly - and I mean that.)
I got a picture that shows #43 no where near a radio car - more like a turn apex - with Bacon just ahead and leaving and Moro doing some daring-do to miss the bank and #43. The photo's owner said he expected a big crash and was very surprised at the outcome. Sunday's mole said it was Johnson that was to be awarded a big prize but I see that the car is Johnson's old one so that's where the confusion must have come from.

One of the PM's mentioned the lack of triangle which makes sense in that Jon is good (not a nutcase) and Rod is good enough to have seen one if Jon didn't.

There was a reseed after SS3's results so the OA list here:

http://www.rally-america.com/Archives/2008/STPR/day/day_index.html

is pretty close.
Travis is moved to 7th and Block right behind.
Kyle being the last car clean, Travis, Block, Kenny (who must have stopped to help out) Bacon, then Moro and my info is foggy after that.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2008 02:09PM by randyzimmer.

So, the Red Cross was thrown because of the fire risk and Derek was clipped by one of the transiting cars?

OK, the link didn't work like I wanted.
Go to "results" and select SS3 and look at the order there.

Pinker
Faust
L'Estage
ACP
Johnson
Sarasin

And those are the cars scored.
The ones next:
Block, Kenny, Bacon and Moro all got allowances.
If the red cross was thrown for injury, it would have been after at least these four.

I'm trying to figure what strategy would come into play for FORCING a stoppage.
Also:
Why do people hate STPR so much that they keep transiting popular spectator stages every year?

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > So, the Red Cross was thrown because of the fire
> risk and Derek was clipped by one of the
> transiting cars?
>
Unless I am reading it all wrong,
There was no red cross until Ringer was hit by Kemp back at the roll scene.
Block was trying to get info about the roll to the net by transiting to the bridge (where he had hit the hay bale at the year before) and sitting in the middle of the road, causing another commotion there when first Bacon, then Moro arrived.

What I can't figure out is the part about Alex going ahead to the next radio to red cross the stage because of blockage.

If it was so blocked that it needed to be canceled, then how did HE get by?

*confused*

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

help! help! I'm being repressed!!

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/