Various - new super star, STPR, hype

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure, but when I was in high school, I had met and
> spent a day and an evening talking like normal
> people with a pile of current and ex World
> Champions in both 250 and 500 classes. Torsten
> Hallman was a 4 times World Champion in 250 class,
> Bengt Aberg had just won his first World
> Championship, Roger deCoster had just won Belgian
> Championship 500 and was to go on to win 5 time
> the 500 World Championship crown.
> They were modest to a man, all of them.
>
> If I knew way back in 1969 what local was and that
> there was a "rest of the world' way back when we
> only had magazines and Newspapers and knew the
> difference between a couple of local high placings
> and calling somebody a "SUPERSTAR", the whoever
> the fuck
> it is who is writing this shit and embarrassing
> Sarasin, and embarrassing the already pretty
> embarrassing US Rallyscene OUGHT to know better


DUUUUDE... massive generation gap going on here. I know your sensibilities are hurt, so are many others.

BUT,

Travis IS A SUPERSTAR.

The fact that we don't need to use his last name is the first clue.

You can be a superstar in just about anything.. the main thing is by being famous.

My other point is, and feel free to hate me. But there's not much to be gained by constantly harping about how much US Rally sucks ass. It might be cathartic, but it's not productive in of itself

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> DUUUUDE... massive generation gap going on here.
> I know your sensibilities are hurt, so are many
> others.
>
> BUT,
>
> Travis IS A SUPERSTAR.

But he ISN'T A "Superstar" at driving RALLY and this purports to be a RALLY forum.
And the kid Sarasin is even LESS of a "Superstar" than Travis AT RALLYDRIVING.
>
> The fact that we don't need to use his last name
> is the first clue.
>
> You can be a superstar in just about anything..
> the main thing is by being famous.

Yeah well being a SUPERSTAR at one thing doesn't mean anby and all your other exploits are equally "amazing' or noteworthy.
>
> My other point is, and feel free to hate me. But
> there's not much to be gained by constantly
> harping about how much US Rally sucks ass. It
> might be cathartic, but it's not productive in of
> itself

I ain't gonna hate you but there HAS TO BE a countervailing voice to the hype and bullshit of just how IMPRESSIVE everything anybody does is.
Things ARE relative, and if we go along with the hype, that guys who would be hard pressed to win a Junior class event elsewhere are "phenomenons" then things will never improve.
And that's why I say that say for Travis or Sarasin that they would do better for their long term driving to search out competition where they'd face 60-70 guys in machines somewhat similar because then they'd have to improve or fail.

Come on, be real for a second. How many other "skills sets" do we see that people with just extremely limited amount of HOURS results in top "National" placing which we are supposed to be impressed with?
You reckon that somebody could learn to play the piano in 20 hours---or that we're supposed to call what a person with 20 hours piano playing experience "good"?
How about ice hockey?
moto-cross?
BASE fawkin ball?

How about other skills?
Law?
medicine?
Airplane acrobatics?

But we see repeatedly in both US and Canada (and in a few other places now with very thin competition) that guys with virtually no previous competition experience or maybe at most just a few hours, can make top 5 results, once they buy a first class car.

That means the competition is thin, otherwise the thing that usually prevails in most human endeavors with any difficulty, experience and routine/practices, would show up and be reflected in the results.

Think back to just say 1990 and reflect over the amount of people to hop into the sport with huge investments in the CAR and how they immediately did HERE---the point is HERE, and where have they gone ELSEWHERE?

That's not "ragging on how much it sucks here" those are your words.
It's slow here, that's a fact. there is no "value" judgment in that statement.

And in any case when I am pointing out how in general the alleged pointy end of the stick isn't particularly fast---by any wider standards---the POINT is to ENCOURAGE all the Scotts, the Skyes, the Kevins, and Als and Lees and Ians and Vinces, and Lawrences, and Matts and Grants, and Grahams and Tonys and Adams and Toms to finsh their fucking projects and get out and give it a try, that they can do as well as
John lane just did a couple of times already this season in Overall terms.

Now if one wants to discuss why it's slow here this thread about exaggerated hype might just be linked, at least from my perspective it is the central reason why North American rally has been so much slower than the slowest classes elsewhere and why it continues to be regardless of obscene spending on a few cars.
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 28

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, the beauty of marketing hype is that it doesn't matter. "superstar" is just a made up word that can mean anything. However, I understand your point that overhyping US rally undermines the growth of US rally on the world stage.
I don't know that I agree with you on this one.


But let me point out that I am the "superstar east coast xr4ti rally driver"

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

mothra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, the beauty of marketing hype is that it
> doesn't matter. "superstar" is just a made up
> word that can mean anything. However, I
> understand your point that overhyping US rally
> undermines the growth of US rally on the world
> stage.
> I don't know that I agree with you on this one.
>
>
> But let me point out that I am the "superstar east
> coast xr4ti rally driver"

Yeah maybe you're right.
The rest of the world of motorsports has historically always looked at Americans as big mouthed bullshitter who talk big, look flashy and underdeliver dramatically.

So really nothing new so what am i worried about.
Its sorta how here i decided we should all be extremely high powered Mega- and Hyper and Sooooper Moderators I guess.

Better write Skye and suggest he had SOOOPERSTAR and PHENOMENONAL Moderator to the list. Damn I just check my ol Soooperstar Xratty boy and you're only a Junior moderator this time.
Phhhft!
>
>
> Matt Smith
>
> Racing in glorious black and red

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yeah maybe you're right.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca



Dude that is going on my signature line.




I can understand the frustration that you, Randy and many others are voicing about how so amateur rallists are presenting themselves in promotions. I hope that Kyle finds an opportunity to develop his skills overseas.

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

>
> Better write Skye and suggest he had SOOOPERSTAR
> and PHENOMENONAL Moderator to the list. Damn I
> just check my ol Soooperstar Xratty boy and you're
> only a Junior moderator this time.
> Phhhft!
> >
> >
> > Matt Smith
> >
> > Racing in glorious black and red
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Well, I wanna be the cat's ass of moderators then....

or the dog's bollocks , whatever

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 10:47PM by Vorpal_Rally.

No one has hyped themselves or their results more than JVL. John does it in a self deprecating fashion is the only difference. Of course there was no YouTube back in the dinosaur days either.

This is the unwarranted negativity , or jealousy, that irritates myself and many others in the world. You guys ever wonder why more people in our "community" don't participate in online forums ?

Kyle seems like a great kid. He has consistant and verifiable results. He is fast and he's getting faster. I don't hang around with him but I haven't seen him to be overbearing, obnoxious or arrogant. He has talent . Maybe he was in the right place at the right time, good for him, good for the sport. He's accomplished more in a couple years than some people have in a couple of decades. He is what is right with our sport. Racing is much more than just talent...money, circumstances and timing all play big parts also.

For the geographically challenged..this ain't Europe ! Our fast guys, our sport, our "world" is what it is. Children are not raised on rally over here. Not fair to diminish our results, program or "Superstars" because things are different elsewhere. I'll bet Gronholm couldn't even qualify at Talledega.

My son just got 3rd OA at the last RallyX. He did it in an old, tired 2wd 323. Am I proud of him, heck yes. Am I ashamed that he isn't as fast as Petter? Uh, no...Is it "rally" ? ...no, but he put forth his best effort and did pretty well. If I had filmed it I would upload it to the net...well I'd have somebody smarter upload it for me..

If your life consists of tearing down others for their accomplishments, why even get out of bed in the morning ? Enjoy the sport for what is is and it's okay to recognize others achievements...really.

On my meds,
Gene

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one has hyped themselves or their results more
> than JVL. John does it in a self deprecating
> fashion is the only difference. Of course there
> was no YouTube back in the dinosaur days either.
>
> This is the unwarranted negativity , or jealousy,
> that irritates myself and many others in the
> world. You guys ever wonder why more people in our
> "community" don't participate in online forums ?
>
> Kyle seems like a great kid. He has consistant and
> verifiable results. He is fast and he's getting
> faster. I don't hang around with him but I
> haven't seen him to be overbearing, obnoxious or
> arrogant. He has talent . Maybe he was in the
> right place at the right time, good for him, good
> for the sport. He's accomplished more in a couple
> years than some people have in a couple of
> decades. He is what is right with our sport.
> Racing is much more than just talent...money,
> circumstances and timing all play big parts also.
>
>
> For the geographically challenged..this ain't
> Europe ! Our fast guys, our sport, our "world" is
> what it is. Children are not raised on rally over
> here. Not fair to diminish our results, program or
> "Superstars" because things are different
> elsewhere. I'll bet Gronholm couldn't even qualify
> at Talledega.
>
> My son just got 3rd OA at the last RallyX. He did
> it in an old, tired 2wd 323. Am I proud of him,
> heck yes. Am I ashamed that he isn't as fast as
> Petter? Uh, no...Is it "rally" ? ...no, but he put
> forth his best effort and did pretty well. If I
> had filmed it I would upload it to the net...well
> I'd have somebody smarter upload it for me..
>
> If your life consists of tearing down others for
> their accomplishments, why even get out of bed in
> the morning ? Enjoy the sport for what is is and
> it's okay to recognize others
> achievements...really.
>
> On my meds,
> Gene



Goddammit Gene, I'm sick and tired of people being so fucking short sighted that they can't see hypping up shit hurts EVERYBODYS GROWTH, the sport AND THEIR OWN.
And I'm REALLY FUCKING SICK AND TIRED OF GETTING ACCUSED OF TEARING DOWN "THE SPORT" OR OTHER PEOPLES ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

gODDAMMIT I FUCKING WELL AM PISSED AT THIS BULLSHIT AND I'M TIRED OF IT.

I'LL EXPLAIN IT TO YOU AGAIN SO THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY YOU CAN FUCKING TWIST SHIT AROUND AND SAY I'M BEING NEGATIVE---WHICH I TAKE AS A SLUR AND A FUCKING LIE, GOT THAT A FUCKING LIE.

hERE IT IS: IF THERE IS A DESIRE TO IMPROVE SOMETHING, AND THAT'S A BIG IF THAT MAYBE I HAVE ALL WRONG---WHAT THE FUCK DO I KNOW ABOUT RACING SHIT---- BUT IF WE WANT TO IMPROVE SOMETHING THEN WE FIRST MUST SCRUTINIZED VIGOROUSLY AND HONESTLY THE THING WE WANT TO IMPROVE BE IT A PART OR A MOTOR OR A SKILL OR A SPORT.

ONLY THEN CAN IMPROVEMENT BE POSSIBLE.
SO, IN YOUR BOOK GENE, I'M TRYING TO DESTROY AMERICAN RALLY AND I'M BEING CONSTANTLY NEGATIVE.

BUT I HAD A CALL FROM SOMEBODY WHO WAS DEEPER INTO THE SPORT FOR A DECADE LONGER THAN YOU AND IN SEVERAL COUNTRIES WHO SAID "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU STILL BOTHER TO CARE AND ARE STILL SO OPTIMISTIC."

SO WHICH IS IT GENE? I'M NEGATIVE AND TRYING TO DESTROY TEAR DOWN BLAH FUCKING BLAH---BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, OR THIS GUY WHO 'S BEEN AROUND AND KNOWS MORE THAN WE BOTH PUT TOGETHER WHO SAYS I'M OPTIMISTIC?

EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE GENE, AND I KNOW BETTER THIS AIN'T EUROPE CAUSE I SPENT A LONG TIME THERE---RACING.

BUT WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT IF SOME FRIEND OF YOUR SON HAD SOME VIDEOS WITH HIS NAME ON THEM CALLING HIS RALLYCROSS RESULTS "PHENOMENAL" , AND HIM A "SUPERSTAR"?

THAT'D BE BULLSHIT AND YOU KNOW IT AND YOU'D BE EMBARRASSED FOR YOUR SON.

GET FUCKING REAL AND STOP DEFENDING WHAT YOU KNOW IS EXAGGERATED BULLSHIT.

CALLING RATHER PEDESTRIAN RESULTS, BARELY UP TO
JUNIOR LEVEL IN OTHER PLACES-FANTASTIC HARMS DEVELOPMENT.

SINCE MY FIRST EVENT I HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS HELPING AND ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO GET STARTED AND TO BUILD SHIT THEY CAN AFFORD TO RUN HARD, AND HOLD ONTO SO THEY CAN STAY IN THE SPORT AND IMPROVE THEIR DRIVING OVER TIME.

AND BULLSHIT THAT I CLAIM I'M FAST IN A SELF DEPRECATING FASHION.
I DON'T CLAIM ANYBODY IN NORTH AMERICAN SINCE BUFFUM IS FAST.
I WAS PRETTY FAST AT MOTO-CROSS FOR A SHORT WHILE, BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF RALLY IF I SAY I COULD IN MY OLD POS 69 SAAB BEAT SAY JANICE DAMITIO IN THE YEAR SHE WON PGT , I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I SAY THAT TO GUYS THAT IT'S NOT TO BRAG ABOUT BEING FAST BUT MORE "SO IF I COULD DO THAT---THEN SO CAN YOU IN A BETTER CAR."
THAT'S FUCKIN AS POSITIVE AS CAN BE, AND IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT THEN I SAY OH WELL, TOUGH SHIT.

LEARN TO READ IN A MORE SOPHISTICATED MANNER.

ENOUGH OF THIS LAMENT, GENE, I TAKE IT PERSONAL AND FIND IT EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE, AND YEAH I KNOW I HAVE CAP LOCKS ON CAUSE I'M PISSED AT THESE ENDLESS BULLSHIT ACCUSATIONS OF BEING NEGATIVE.
i FIND THE ACCUSATIONS OF BEING "NEGATIVE" PATENTLY NEGATIVE.

IT'S ALL A POINT OF VIEW.
IT'S 0145 I'M GOING TO BED.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, check your meds... 8)

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, check your meds... 8)
>
> As always IMHO


Ain't lack of meds,
and I did take a break to go smoke a ciggie, I'm just tired of what I see as personal attacks, and not in the least bit 'funny' that people don't recognize that constant criticism repeating the bullshit that "you're too negative" is in it self highly negative.

If all I did was a vague "This sucks" then that would be negative---and fairly useless.

If by describing accurately what I see a problem as, already in the description of the problem, there are suggestions of possible solutions.
It all depends on the ability to understand that idea of 'implied' ideas, and that takes reading with an open mind,and seeing a larger purpose instead of the reader,
Gene or whoever ASSUMING THE WHOLE POINT IS TO DO NOTHING BUT COMPLAIN and then lo and behold when their assumption is found, complaining that everybody is negative.

Grrrrrrr.
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > John, check your meds... 8)
> >
> > As always IMHO
>
>
> Ain't lack of meds,
> and I did take a break to go smoke a ciggie, I'm
> just tired of what I see as personal attacks, and
> not in the least bit 'funny' that people don't
> recognize that constant criticism repeating the
> bullshit that "you're too negative" is in it self
> highly negative.
>
> If all I did was a vague "This sucks" then that
> would be negative---and fairly useless.
>
> If by describing accurately what I see a problem
> as, already in the description of the problem,
> there are suggestions of possible solutions.
> It all depends on the ability to understand that
> idea of 'implied' ideas, and that takes reading
> with an open mind,and seeing a larger purpose
> instead of the reader,
> Gene or whoever ASSUMING THE WHOLE POINT IS TO DO
> NOTHING BUT COMPLAIN and then lo and behold when
> their assumption is found, complaining that
> everybody is negative.
>
> Grrrrrrr.
> >
> > SEAN TENNIS
> > SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> > SAAB 99, SAAB 850
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


John,

Lord knows we disagree on almost everything. But there is a bit of perspective that is lacking in the viewing of these comments.

I spent a good 30-45 minutes talking with a young family on holiday here in the states from Holland. The subject briefly turned to rally. The dutch gentleman wasn't a big rally fan but was familiar with the sport. He thought that it was outrageous that we had a rally series in the US that was "national" he couldn't imagine how teams would be able to afford it. I told him many can't so the national championships don't have much competition or go to guys with the most money (he laughed and said it seemed to be the same in much of Europe).

My point with this little detour is that things just aren't going to be the same here as they are in Europe. Rallying in the US will never get to where it is in places like Finland, and that is alright. Measuring it against that sort of measuring stick is an activity in frustration and futility.

I read some of the international forums as well (and we have butted heads there as well) and sometimes I defend rally in the us. Sure, its the truth. Perhaps what doesn't come through is that I am not so dilusional as to believe that things are great in the US. Normally I am merely attempting to point out that there is some decent competition nationally, that there are some pretty good drivers. It is not just some guys in cobbled together pieces of crap that can't driver for shit. Really, that is my point.

But here is the thing. You are attempting to judge rally against something that it can't really be. Let's be honest. Part of what makes Finnish rally so successful is the fact that it is so approachable. Anyone can build a car in their garage or barn and have a plethora of events within an hour to an hour and a half. Heck, in most of Europe you could tow to and from the opposite side of the country in under 24 hours, if not in the same day for some countries. The scale and the potential is just radically different.

You say everything is crap and needs to be a lot better to be what the Europeans have. I say what the Europeans have won't work here (at least not on a national level) and what we have isn't that bad (yeah, regional rally support and structure sucks, but at least I am doing everything I can to do something about it (and you are doing something about it as well)). You can't make the country smaller, or the fact that money plays a big factor in championship results. It is just how the cookie crumbles.

You're right though. There isn't a ton of competition through out the fields and the development of regional rallying and ralliests sucks. But we can't change the insurance, the cost of gas, or the fact that there are a certain number of companies that see value in spending a ton of money on rallying to be able to run at the pointed end of the stick (and do not take my use of pointed to mean sharp). Most of our fast guys would probably get their butts handed to them in a wide range of other national championship events, at least at first if not overall.

Things are what they are. We can either work to make the best of the situation and judge it for what it is or we can try to make it out to be something that it really never will be. That is the big difference here. I'm trying to make the best of the hand that has been dealt, as are a lot of the rest of us...

JVLslittlebuddy Wrote:... I say what
> the Europeans have won't work here (at least not
> on a national level) ...

Equipment?
Worked pretty well for a true superstar grandfather.

National Championships?
That would equate to regional ones like CRS, and your Colorado series.
We need more of them.
With guys moving up from them and accomplished guests showing the way.

---------

I know there's guys complaining about the cookie-cutter cars and the lack of car diversity, but if you race a minute apart, how do you learn?
If you always have the car as an excuse (or, if your car is a rocket, a crutch) having similar equipment is the best we can do in the woods.
Similar cars mean that you can at least try to compare times.
Not everyone gets a chance to follow Frank Sprongl like I did and have him Show me where to improve. That is/was a very rare opportunity.

I started this thread and hated to do it to Kyle because he's not that way at all, but the hype embarrassed me and I couldn't let it slide.
Travis is the only superstar in rally and it isn't because of rally.
The sport is as invisible to most of the US motorsports world as NASCAR is to a Manhattanite, they may have heard of it, but that's about it.
A superstar in US rally has the same cache' as the best baseball player at your elementary school.
When Petter was at RIM, he was amazed at his popularity, that may tell you something.

randyzimmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When Petter was at RIM, he was amazed at his
> popularity, that may tell you something.


Good points Randy. Petter was at rim a few years ago...I wonder if things have changed any. I belive that was before Travis, RA, Xgames, etc. Alot of marketing money has been spent since Petter was at rim I wonder if there has been a gain?

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

Sorry John, you're just flat wrong..CAPS or not. Rally in the states is rally in the states, simple. You don't like people taking shots at you, yet you do it all the time. Kyle has every right to be proud of his accomplishments. Hype is what brings in new blood, new money, new venues. Your anectodal stories of new guys or phone calls from Europe really mean nothing to the situation. You ought to see the eamils and phone calls I get in support of my views. Your 'yelling" and bullying don't much bother me, I don't care for it but that is you and I can accept that. You're a bright guy, brillant in some areas even, maybe even a superstar in doing things better or cheaper, but your views are not necessarily right or widely held. Mine may not be right either, but I have a right to express them , same as you.

RA isn't perfect, I've had disagreements with both JB and Hurst. Both remain friends. Compromises have been made, as well as progress. Rally is facing some real dangers in this country , road closures and now fuel expenses. Popularity of the sport has always been minor. Nagel's hopes to compete on a world stage didn't really materialize after all. Bagging on a talented kid who is doing well , in American rally, is not going to help. Can we make rally better? Maybe...can we make it the same as in Europe..no. Hasn't happened in the past, won't happen in the future. Your frustration and vocalization is your right. Dissenting views, whether mine or yours, are fine. Please don't get so frustrated you pop a vessel and we lose you.

Sorry you feel I've betrayed you...
Gene

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry John, you're just flat wrong..CAPS or not.
> Rally in the states is rally in the states,
> simple.

What pisses me off is half of what i write, or listen to half, ignore the implied or explicit suggestions for improvement, and then say "You are constantly nehgative"


You don't like people taking shots at you,
> yet you do it all the time.

"Shots"? Calliing exaggerated hype (that who knpows who posted) bullshit is taking "Shots" at people?


>Kyle has every right
> to be proud of his accomplishments.

Sure, never said he doesn't. Go back after Michigan and see what I said.


>Hype is what
> brings in new blood, new money, new venues.

And Gene, I've seen for ever an equal number driven away by what the can obviously SEE is a huge YAWNING GAP between what they were told "Pro" rally was like and then what they saw when I dragged them out to events.

Hype=bullshit and some people don't like the smell of bullshit.




>Your
> anectodal stories of new guys or phone calls from
> Europe really mean nothing to the situation.

Sorry, it means a lot of guys have the ability to figure out that I'm ALL ABOUT building up some version of the sport ----on the end I have the skills for---- that is as affordable as possible and as sustainable as possible, becaius ethey listen to the second half of the message.



Rather than jumping on some bandwagon of repeating that I'm "only thing you're doing is tearing things down"

Gene I don't see why you can't see this point.
You've modded cars before.
The scenario is the same:
First you ain't thrilled by say catching the brakes on fire so you say:
"This catch the brakes on fire every stage is seriously fucked up, (<--the description of the problem)

Then: I wonder if i could find some bitchiner pads, or I have to find something bit bigger? (<------examination of problem and IMPLIED suggestions of soloutions) What do youse guys think? (<-------- opening the subject to dialog)

After dialog with others you see you can use Nowigotcha ZXZZX GTI discs and Toyota pickup calipers.
Change occurs.

You portray that what I do is only the very first part : say this is fucked up

And that is not true and you know it, and so saying it is what I do is a purposeful mischaracterization and saying CONSTANTLY that "all you do is tear down" is fucked up, Gene.


You
> ought to see the eamils and phone calls I get in
> support of my views. Your 'yelling" and bullying
> don't much bother me, I don't care for it but that
> is you and I can accept that. You're a bright guy,
> brillant in some areas even, maybe even a
> superstar in doing things better or cheaper, but
> your views are not necessarily right or widely
> held. Mine may not be right either, but I have a
> right to express them , same as you.

Yep agreed, and that's one thing I like about you, you aren't a pussy, you're a hard head. Seems anybody that has lasted in this damn sport HAS to be real thick headed and I support their right to be thick headed.
We need more HARD HEADS.

But I still don't accept that they should say HALF TRUTHs about people in purposefully derogatory manners.
> >
>>
Bagging on a talented kid who is doing
> well , in American rally, is not going to help.

There you go again, to barrow a phrase from a criminal incompetent former President.
I HAVE NOT BAGGED Sarasin or his results.
I have called somebodys description of him as a "Superstar" and a "Phenomenon" as patently bullshit, and I stand by that.
Get it straight, Gene, it makes a difference.

See Randys comments about Pastrana being the only SOOOOPER-Star and it ain't from what he's done playing at rally.




> Can we make rally better? Maybe...can we make it
> the same as in Europe..no.

Doesn't mean we can't MAYBE learn to concentrate on simpler, cheaper--probably older---cars and then to TRY to DRIVE THEM HARDER, rather than buying expensive turbo awd cars and merely motoring thru the stages AS MOST GUYS DO.


Hasn't happened in the
> past, won't happen in the future. Your frustration
> and vocalization is your right. Dissenting views,
> whether mine or yours, are fine. Please don't get
> so frustrated you pop a vessel and we lose you.

Please stop mischaracterizing what I say as "only tearing down things" and "negative' and I will calm down.
>
> Sorry you feel I've betrayed you...


I have said for over 25 years that I know this aint Europe (and Europe ain't all just hunky dorey either) but I've said that we can look at the places there which have high participation, SEE IF WE CAN DEDUCE WHAT ELEMENTS LEAD TO THE HIGH PARTICIPATION, and then see if it's possible to incorporate or emphasize those elements here.
The hope being to get numbers much higher and so spread the fixed costs around a large base (sorta like motorcycles where I
come from previously) resulting in lower overall events costs per car.

That's not a hard concept of complicated idea so try to discuss that idea if you want to criticize me, and don't try to make like I'm saying "Whaaaaaaaaaa this ain't Yupooop! Whaaaaaaaah we gotta do everything like they do in Lower Slobovia"

OK?
> Gene

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 10:43AM by john vanlandingham.