WTF is up with you PNW guys?

We've been spoiled for many years. I doubt that most other areas had the number of events and the quality of roads the PNW has had. That will be changing with the loss of west coast roads. I suspect the PNW guys will be getting the traveling shoes on. I never made California back in the day but did several Canadian events . We had quite a few cars that went north back in the 80's.

As everyone has likely figured out, drivers aren't the only ones with frustrations. Organizers have a bunch of frustrations and headaches also. I think it's great that we're doing some venting and working thru it. Since we (collectively) seem to be able to remain friends and aquaintances after the fusses, the sport will be better in the end.

But the tech inspectors Gene, the tech inspectors. They have it worst of all! None of the thrills of competing, and none of the big money of organizing!

*grin*

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders Green Wrote:
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> But the tech inspectors Gene, the tech inspectors.
> They have it worst of all! None of the thrills of
> competing, and none of the big money of
> organizing!
>
> *grin*
>
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

I make as much as most organizers....

Yeah, maybe I was a bit harsh. I know MY sense of distance is skewed. Nearly everything's a long tow for me, so I just plan on it when I'm planning my season.

Still, there're a lot of good peeps in the PNW, and there's a bungload of good drivers, and I'd like to figure out how to get those people out to other events. I'da figured that ID was a good event a relatively short tow away, so it's pretty disappointing that so few showed up.

Maybe it's a bad time of year.
Maybe it's just one of those times that the people who can tow don't have working cars.
Maybe there wasn't enough notice for the event, so a lot of people didn't hear about it.
Maybe the increasing rate of road-loss-near-major-cities has gone unnoticed.

I dunno.

I'm sorta sitting here scratching my head wondering what it takes to get this sport revitalized. We're past the peak that was spawned by Subaru's bringing the WRX to America, so what will it take to generate the next peak? Gas prices are going up, and car prep is much more costly than it used to be, what with more complicated cages and FIA seats and H&N restraints and stuff like that. There haven't been any decent candidates for "cheapo" cars on the market for years, and that's a concern too.

I do know that there're still organizers trying to put on events, but those events are getting more and more remote, and without some support from the competitors they're probably not going to last for long.

Now I'm in this weird position of being both an organizer and a competitor, so I have an insight into both sides of it. It's kind of a two-way street. An event can't survive without competitors, but it's also true that being a competitor has no meaning if there aren't any events. So, I'd like to see people making an extra effort to getting out to events. If you can't compete, try to make an effort to at least get out and work it in some fashion.

I think it sort of gets back to what this board is all about, which is grassroots rallying. But for a grassroots movement to be successful, people have to make an effort to make it so. Otherwise it dies. In our case, that means that rallying becomes more and more novelty sport, and eventually we'll end up with the Travis and Ken Show at the X-Games, and that will be the end of it.


Oh, and Merrilee: I think there were only three ID teams that showed up, but I think there're only maybe four ID teams in the whole state, so I figured that was a pretty good turnout.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Ok, imma comment a little on the above because of the mention of "grassroots". I've been around rally almost my entire life, I'm 37 and I started riding around in a service van at around age 5 or 6. I started working out on stage around age 12. What I remember is a bunch of small rallies, locally, with a small amount of local competitors. To me, that would be getting back to a grassroots type of rallying. I think that's what I'd really like to see again, personally. Do I like the big time events, of course I do. But I really miss the small neighborhood rallies that we used to have too. Levels, levels of rally, there needs to be more of it. More little local events that more people can afford to do because they don't need to drive a long distance, they don't need to pack food for however many days, they don't need to take time off work. Saturday night starts, finish around 1 am and get home by 3 am if you didn't stuff yourself somewhere. And I think hillclimbs need to start popping up again, I don't care what they are called, C1 or whatever, but I remember hillclimbs. Right now the only ones I know of are tarmac events. Why are there no hillclimbs anymore, 2-3 miles that you run over and over again, meaning you need minimal workers, hell, you could even do what the tarmac hillclimb guys do and make your entrants switch off between working and running (like we do with autocross and rallycross).

So, yes, I suppose some of us from the NW have been spoiled, we still have more events than probably anywhere else that are close by and easy for many to attend. But, that's what everyone else should strive to have too, and then we all meet up at the bigger events (those that can afford it).

And, although it's been a few months since OTR, really, how many people's cars did not survive? Even many who finished, still may not have been able to get prepared in time for ID. Or, they did, but the cost of getting everything put back together ate up any monies they could have used for any upcoming event.

Yes, I'm rambling, sorry.

Michel-

Besides the fact that real life has hit us hard this last year (new house, new priorities), I'm tired of rally. It also doesn't help things when the entry fees are the way they are. Granted IR had no notes, but it would have been cheaper for us to buy them than to spend all that time receeing. We only live 40 miles from the event. When we moved up here, part of the compromise was rally being "close". Before gas was 3.5/gal, 200+ miles was close, now not even 40 miles is close. I also noticed, though, how many of my old alma mater traveled long distance to get up here, which makes me proud!

I proposed doing a c1 or c2 rally here in Boise, and the response was "we'd rather travel for something larger", evidentally not, based on the amount of PNW entries at IR.

Cable

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Cable Rhodes
Boise, Idaho
'87 Mazda RX-7 Turbo

Idaho was going to be the race where the only 4 active Volvo 240 rally cars in North America were going to meet and run against each other this year. It's 850 miles from Los Angeles (Malik and I), 900 miles from Calgary (Houston Peschl), and 550 miles from Seattle (John Lane). It was essentially the universe for all of us and an ideal place to meet. We had talked about it for months and everybody was excited.

Then there was a downturn and gas shot up or life got in the way just a few months before. Bill's shop felt it. Houston's co-driver couldn't go and things became hectic for him at work. And apparently John got in the middle of "alligators" as he puts it. So about 4 weeks before, our little meeting was cancelled.

I still towed up and enjoyed it, although we ended up running someone else's notes because there was no way we could recce. (We started the tow at 8pm after work on Wed and got there at noon on Thurs). I would really have preferred organizer notes as I had to build my trust that the other team was spot-on with their notes (which was true for the most part).

I just hope the PNW folks don't find themselves in the same boat as CRS over the past few years. We used to be flush with roads and great events and were a premiere divisional series. Then the tide turned, politics changed, and we have more events outside the state than in it.

...Brian...

Grass roots..I'm beginning to hate that term. What the heck do people think DooWops, Nevada, Idaho, Mt.Hood and Wild West are ? Seriously...local events , put on by local organizers/ralliests. Doesn't get any more grass roots than that. Organizers shouldn't have to spend hundreds of hours putting on an event and hoping to break even if all goes well.

There is one event left western Washington and I honestly don't see that changing. I'll pretty well guarantee the first time DooWops sees less than 30 cars will be the last time you see DooWops. Jens, Michel and Simon would have every right to walk away at this point. They'd actually make money spending the same amount of effort selling lemonade at the curbside, with way less financial exposure.

No one actually shows up for C1 events. The same amount of permits, paper work and grief to put on. Maybe less workers, but way less road time and competitors. Look how many cars the Worker Sprints draw...not many.

I think we have 2 problems here, apathy and economics. We can't shit out new roads so forget talking about local roads.

Apathy, I haven't a clue what to do about that. Maybe trying to develope more of a club atmosphere. Sharing resources and skills. Cheerleading, mentoring ..I don't really know.

Economics, well that's tough. I read today where the average household debt to income ratio is at 120% up from 60% in 1984. How can we (rally) cope with that ? The events here pretty much run at break even status. It costs what it costs. Yup, you can cut some costs, run blind and short change the volunteers. Not much else can really be done to cut event costs. Competitor costs are different and include car purchase and build, tires, fuel, crew, entry fees and reliability. Reliability is much of what JVL preaches and is often overlooked in rally costs. If you tow 600 miles and break on the first stage , the cost per mile skyrockets and the fun factor plummets. However spending years to build the ultimate car is not the answer either. People lose interest, life can change a lot in 2 years time.

There are two ways rally can cope with economics. Find more affluent people to run the sport or cut some events. RallyMoto may bring in some new money/competitors. Cutting events could be an answer for the PNW. We need to balance the calendar so that towing to Idaho and Nevada is an attractive idea. I would say to cancel either Olympus or Wild West for starters. Towing twice a year to Pomeroy is silly. Save the other tow for Nevada or Idaho. Maybe alternating events. Idaho, Wild West one year, Mt.Hood, Nevada the next year. Balance the calendar , making allowances for time of year and weather conditions. Obviously the Cascades pose a huge consideration weather wise. Fire danger also plays a big role.

The PNW needs to look at our big picture, which really should include Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Canada and Northern California. That's our 'grass roots' area. If the events/organizers don't stay healthy and enthusiastic, then competitors won't have a place to play. Symbiosis comes to mind , mutualism is a type of symbiosis whereby both parties( comptitors and organizers) benefit. Rally must achieve and maintain this balance or it will be only past memories .

Michel life changed for Carrie and I when I fell asleep while driving North on I-5 after a stressful week.
I'm thankful our lives are only changed by my screwup for this year......

I want very much to attend as many events as I can but life gets in the way; this year in particular.

I get the Volvo in best ever condition and this happens!!

Guys don't drive sleep-deprived in a too comfortable vehicle.

I know damned good and well that had I been driving the Ford or even the yellow Volvo that I would not have fallen asleep. Ugh.

We are glad to be alive.

I'm glad that we've as many events to play at as we do. I hope to take part in more of them next year.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Gene, you mentioned the worker sprints, from what I understand the reason people don't run that is because it seems to be a car breaker. Is it fun? Hell yes. First year I went, by day two, almost no one was running because everyone had broken their car. Last year, I think there were more survivors by day two, but still, a lot of carnage. Not like OTR where it's people stuffing because they are driving beyond their means for the type of roads, but because it's just that rough. I'm not even sure going slower would have helped that much. We ran the perfect vehicle, a truck, and had no issues, but seems like anyone in a car was taking a huge risk.

Is it an awesome thing to have available, yeah, it is. Is it appreciated? I believe it is. But it's always going to be a low entry level because people are scared to run it.

However, as someone who for years and years and years was a worker (and still is most of the time), I'd never even heard of it until the first year I went. I do find it odd that it's called the worker sprints, yet there's very few workers there aside from organizers, emt's and sweep.

I was all ready to go, entry fee paid, etc. but both my Dad and I had to go away on business.

But I agree with your sentiment, the NW folks aren't will to travel far in general.

Fuel costs have to be part of it, but not on a short trip like Idaho.

12xalt Wrote:
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> Gene, you mentioned the worker sprints, from what
> I understand the reason people don't run that is
> because it seems to be a car breaker. Is it fun?
> Hell yes. First year I went, by day two, almost
> no one was running because everyone had broken
> their car. Last year, I think there were more
> survivors by day two, but still, a lot of carnage.
> Not like OTR where it's people stuffing because
> they are driving beyond their means for the type
> of roads, but because it's just that rough. I'm
> not even sure going slower would have helped that
> much. We ran the perfect vehicle, a truck, and
> had no issues, but seems like anyone in a car was
> taking a huge risk.
>
> Is it an awesome thing to have available, yeah, it
> is. Is it appreciated? I believe it is. But
> it's always going to be a low entry level because
> people are scared to run it.
>
> However, as someone who for years and years and
> years was a worker (and still is most of the
> time), I'd never even heard of it until the first
> year I went. I do find it odd that it's called
> the worker sprints, yet there's very few workers
> there aside from organizers, emt's and sweep.

We're getting off track here but,,

Rough is rough. These are rally cars, not road racers. Part of the game used to be knowing how to pace yourself so the car could survive. A truck ( the lil' Mitsu ??) is hardly perfect simpley because it still has ball joints, tie rods and probably TC rods , none of which are huge on a little truck. The balance is questionable as well as limited suspension.

Did alchol play a large role in the lack of finishers? How about lack of judgement where people decide to see who can jump their car the farthest ? The event should probably be a RallyX where the workers could go for rides and beaters such as Hornet cars could run.

Towing 3 to 4 hours from Portland or Bellingham to run a C1 event that lasts less than 20 minutes (?) just won't be a hit.

Michel,
Why didn't you go to Idaho?

Nothing is up with the PNW peeps, sometimes shit (life) happens .

Idaho Rally was on my list both last year and this year to run, and "life" got in the way of running it both times. Last year car not ready after Olympus (but still helped sponsor the event), this year same deal (prepping new car).. Hopefully by Mt Hood I'll be back in the driver's seat again. There are a few other rally teams in Bend, all but one of which were in the same boat as me. Sometimes the timing isn't right.

There were other NW teams that wanted to attend, but couldn't due to timing, broken cars, and some due to finances.

Although I didn't run, I did crew for the only team from Idaho. Additionally, at the last minute, I teched all of the cars, as the "other NASA tech inspector" (unnamed) didn't call, email, or bother to show up. I always try to help and be proactive at whatever "local" events possible. Since this year has been a hard one for me in many ways (divorce, economy, etc), I've been crewing and scrutineering more than driving, but participating at most of the events, nonetheless.

As far as the event went, by all of the drivers' accounts, some of the best roads they've seen/driven, even on some of the transits into service they were incredible. On the organizational end, there could be a bit more infrastructure to keep things going smoothly. There were volunteers that never got contacted/assigned locations, HAMS that didn't show, 50+ spectators that got left on a cancelled stage (w/ not enough hams or marshalls) without notice, and no class or USRC podiums (mentions or trophies), to name a few things that need work. Not only are we "spoiled" in the NW with many events, but also great rally groups that make it look easy.

Granted, Idaho is a new event, but the organization is key to keeping things running smoothly. We have a couple of great rally groups up here (ORG, PRG) with many, many years of experience that didn't get utilized much helping out in Idaho. With that brings organizing help, volunteers, emts, sweep, and competitors from whatever region. For the most part, both the ORG and PRG do a great job with all aspects of an event. Additionally, there was access to a large group of local moto guys that wanted to help too (as well as enter Rally moto). Not to say that the politics would be entirely behind the lack of NW entrants, but could be a factor. There were issues that would have been "nonissues" with good infrastructure. To get more entrants and a tighter event next year, that should be a priority.

Looking forward to next year's event, from the left seat.

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Build the car, race the car, crash the car, fix the car..Repeat

B- Wrote:
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> Hopefully by
> Mt Hood I'll be back in the driver's seat again.

God, I hope so! I am really tired of making "Barrett Dash? Didn't he used to be a driver?" jokes. Well, maybe not as tired as you are of hearing them.

alan

B- Wrote:
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> Michel,
> Why didn't you go to Idaho?
>

Well, aside from having towed to two events in the PNW this year, and towed to two events in the SW this year, and then co-organized one in Nevada this year, I had a wedding to go to. So I suppose I'm in the "real life bit me in the ass" camp, although that sounds kind of demeaning to my friend who got married.

It's great you could go out and help. I'm all for that. I suspect next year I'll be signed up to help out with some of the infrastructure issues, but that'll probably depend on how close it is to NNR.

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Self-righteous douche canoe