Closeup component pics from WRC Spain

Tim Taylor Wrote:

>
> The PH stainless steels are magical. Relatively
> easy to machine and they don't warp at all when
> heat treated. They actually shrink something like
> 0.05% evenly in all directions so you just scale
> up the part by that amount and machine to the
> larger dimensions. I'll try to find a picture of
> the last part I made out of 17-4...the coloring is
> identical to those brake hats.
>

I made it through a whole year of material science class and no one ever told me about PH Stainless. In fact my materials book has only one small paragraph on the subject! Thanks for the lesson Tim!

It says that the "adding the additional aluminum (PH hardening is what makes 6061 and 7075 aluminum so strong) alloy agents and extra processing make it very expensive and it should only be used when absolutely required."

How real is that statement? Is it stupid expensive?

. The alloys of SS that can be PHed, have more aluminum in them

---

Michael LeCompte

pikespeakgtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It says that the "adding the additional aluminum
> (PH hardening is what makes 6061 and 7075 aluminum
> so strong) alloy agents and extra processing make
> it very expensive and it should only be used when
> absolutely required."
>
> How real is that statement?

I can't say out of context if that's a correct statement. I try to avoid heat treated aerospace alloys because while the premium for the materials themselves is not so bad the processing/heat treating fixtures/straightening of warped parts gets expensive fast.


Is it stupid
> expensive?
>

It's usually around twice as expensive as low carbon steel and a 20% premium over a normal chromoly steel like 4340.


> . The alloys of SS that can be PHed, have more
> aluminum in them
>
They don't have any aluminum in them:

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/precipitation/17-4_PH_Data_Sheet.pdf

This high pressure manifold is 17-4 H900 after a 1 hour bake in a Nitrogen flooded oven:

Tim do the aerospace companies use hydraulics or pneumatics to perform tasks like closing doors and remote actuation.

That manifold is most likely for some high pressure gas or fluid..Do they build this stuff to be WAY OVERKILL to prevent failures or does it need to be that strong because it's under such high pressure and stress?

---

Michael LeCompte



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2008 10:00PM by pikespeakgtx.

This weeks picture comes from Henning Solberg's Focus.

It shows the rear brake setup for Gravel. Caliper is still intact. The rotor is broken off.

Henning was having a great rally (for him) and he picks up a puncture which leads to a broken suspension arm. After dat the rotor wears the wheel into two pieces.

Henning says, "First the CALIPER breaks off..." Funny maybe due to translation to English or him not knowing much about the mechanics end of things. He gets the terms caliper and rotor confused.

---

Michael LeCompte



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2008 04:20PM by pikespeakgtx.

oh cubic dollars.....where are thee to be plundered?

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-Tom
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Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Thanks for the education, Tim. This forum rocks for this kind of stuff. The Car Construction forum over there should just hotlink to Anarchy.

I grew up in a machine shop (literally...my toys were blocks of 11L17, my activity center was a Monarch lathe, and my best friend was an old round ram Bridgeport... Okay. Not "literally" But I've never heard of this stuff.

Since you're something of a stainless expert...I done cracked my tubo manifold (beautiful 5 way merge collector piece of art that it is) and am thinking of other materials. We used THICK stainless pipe for the first one. It's done quite well for a few years now, but I'm debating the idea of using thicker than normal inconel and what the price would be.

Or if I should just have Chad weld up a couple more of these in the SS and be ready with spares.

For LSPR, we just welded her up and put it back on, but after so many heat cycles that stuff turns to soda crackers when you try to weld it.

I'll send pics when I get a chance.

Lurch

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Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Since you're something of a stainless expert...I
> done cracked my tubo manifold (beautiful 5 way
> merge collector piece of art that it is) and am
> thinking of other materials. We used THICK
> stainless pipe for the first one. It's done quite
> well for a few years now, but I'm debating the
> idea of using thicker than normal inconel and what
> the price would be.

I'm so far from an expert...I just spent 2 years of college in materials engineering before I escaped to the mechanical side. So the first one was made from thick 304 piping weld elbows? Were they dual certified as 304/304L? If not that might be the problem.

My first pick for stainless exhaust tubing is 321 followed by 347. Inconel tubing is really a bitch to work with. I've only done it once and it was not pleasant. I don't think you will be able to get any thick walled tubing anyway.

If you want to be done with it forever just get a manifold investment cast in Inconel. You're a surfacing guy...CAD that thing up . These days they can SLA a disposable core and cast you a one-off for surprisingly low prices.



>
> Or if I should just have Chad weld up a couple
> more of these in the SS and be ready with spares.
>
> For LSPR, we just welded her up and put it back
> on, but after so many heat cycles that stuff turns
> to soda crackers when you try to weld it.

That sounds distinctly like intergrandular corrosion from stainless that has to much carbon content.


>
> I'll send pics when I get a chance.
>
> Lurch
>

Aye. I've got data for the flange (we waterjet cut the SS one) and I COULD surface up the bugger! I got a buddy with a photogrammetry scanner who's looking for crap to scan for samples even! And I do have friends with the RP capabilities. Who does inconel investment casting?

Neat idea! Working on some other high tech engineering projects too. Not that I need any of it for my rally car, but it makes for great "case study" files to try to sell the work to customers...and I get to work out the bugs in the processes on my own junk.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

I suggested it because you're one of the only people who could possible have the resources to pull it off. The only other Inconel exhaust manifold that I've ever seen was on the WRC Carollas. It would be seriously cool to have one on your mazda...I say do it.

The casting supplier is the tough part. I don't have any connections for casting Inconel 718. You need a heavy hitter who can vacuum cast and possibly hot isostatic press the casting. CRP technology comes to mind first simply because they have a motorsport bent: http://www.crp-usa.net Possible the jet turbine division of Alcoa too: http://www.alcoa.com/howmet/en/home.asp

Let me know if I can help in any way.

-Tim

EDIT: turns out Inconel 625 is the cool new shit



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2008 09:59PM by Tim Taylor.

Yeah, I got resources. Not much $, but lots of friends who do cool shit with some tools that none of us can afford.

I tell you, give me a few million, let me hire all my buddies who, incidentally, are all smarter than me, and I'll take Jack Roush to the f'n cleaners.

Okay, probly not. But I'd go broke trying, and I promise I wouldn't spend it all on rallying. Really. I mean it.


>Let me know if I can help in any way.

Sleep with someone at Alcoa?


Back on topic, I'm thinking it's gonna be fabricated...no "resources" in inconel casting.

So SS321, eh? Roight.

Thanks for the advice. And the smiles.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2008 10:54PM by Lurch.

As long as we're talking about cool shit...what grade of inconel is used for exhaust valves? I had them do my head with inconel valves cuz we had dreams of crazy antilag. Turns out, without a choker, it ain't really needed.

I love G5.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As long as we're talking about cool shit...what
> grade of inconel is used for exhaust valves? I
> had them do my head with inconel valves cuz we had
> dreams of crazy antilag. Turns out, without a
> choker, it ain't really needed.
>

Inconel 751 is most likely. Are they Del West?


> I love G5.
>

You suck...oh, and I talked to Hasslegren about the restrictor. They told me that the displacement had minimal effect. The short summary is boost early and to stratospheric levels at low engine RPM to make monster torque.

-Tim

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As long as we're talking about cool shit...what
> grade of inconel is used for exhaust valves? I
> had them do my head with inconel valves cuz we had
> dreams of crazy antilag. Turns out, without a
> choker, it ain't really needed.
>
> I love G5.
>
> Lurch
> Eric Burmeister
> Greatlakesknowitallatlarge
> Dee-troit
> Still work at Ford...for now...check back
> tomorrow.
> Not anymore. Fired.


EVERYBODY NEEDS ANTILAG! I used inconel exhaust valves too And are you not using launch control? It's more addictive than meth!

---

Gone fishing

david amor Wrote:

> EVERYBODY NEEDS ANTILAG! I used inconel exhaust
> valves too And are you not using launch control?
> It's more addictive than meth!


Sure....except the best from of Antilag is a heavy right foot burried to the floor. Don't lift off and you always have boost

---

Chris

We turned it on at Pikes Peak before we had a properly tuned engine (actually, getting spark plug noise that was breaking up the ignition!). Turned it back off.

Haven't had the need since, really. The fraction of a second lag that is present, I think, serves to make the shifts just a bit easier on the gearbox. The box wasn't designed for over 300 ft/lbs.

My next Motec adventure will be clutchless shifting and maaayyyybe launch control...the car is gonna be spending some time on pavement in '09.

It is a fun toy to tinker with.

sorry for the threadjack.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan