So what's a good FWD?

If I recall I bought the real deal (1988) VW Motorsports gear box for my golf for $2900 - used - it took a while to find it but when I did it was not all that horrible to buy - this would be a 5 speed syncro box not a dog box. I am fairly sure you can get dog gear sets for the Golf 02A box for about the same price new from a view vendors including Selhom.

Lurch is right find a gear box then select the car it fits - it is the hardest part of the FWD equation. Not that you need to run out and get this bit of kit right off but if you keep the car for any time at all you will want it.

---

In the long run reality always wins.

derek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I recall I bought the real deal (1988) VW
> Motorsports gear box for my golf for $2900 - used
> - it took a while to find it but when I did it was
> not all that horrible to buy - this would be a 5
> speed syncro box not a dog box. I am fairly sure
> you can get dog gear sets for the Golf 02A box for
> about the same price new from a view vendors
> including Selhom.
>
> Lurch is right find a gear box then select the car
> it fits - it is the hardest part of the FWD
> equation. Not that you need to run out and get
> this bit of kit right off but if you keep the car
> for any time at all you will want it.
>
>
>
>
Well that's just the thing. I wouldn't bother doing FWD WITHOUT a close ratio box and proper LSD. Besides the competitive aspect it's just not any fun driving a narrow power band without it. Coming from the subarat it'd be a big dissapointment. I was just hoping there'd be a reasonable option. I wish I liked/could drive RWD on gravel/snow but it just doesn't feel right to me. I was just born too late and although I've driven LOTS of rear drivers on the street and LOVE them they scare me when it gets slippy.
>
> See me go at:
> www.11tenths.com
> In the long run Reality always wins.

---

Gone fishing

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> derek Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If I recall I bought the real deal (1988) VW
> > Motorsports gear box for my golf for $2900 -
> used
> > - it took a while to find it but when I did
> it was
> > not all that horrible to buy - this would be
> a 5
> > speed syncro box not a dog box. I am fairly
> sure
> > you can get dog gear sets for the Golf 02A
> box for
> > about the same price new from a view
> vendors
> > including Selhom.
> >
> > Lurch is right find a gear box then select
> the car
> > it fits - it is the hardest part of the FWD
> > equation. Not that you need to run out and
> get
> > this bit of kit right off but if you keep the
> car
> > for any time at all you will want it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Well that's just the thing. I wouldn't bother
> doing FWD WITHOUT a close ratio box and proper
> LSD. Besides the competitive aspect it's just not
> any fun driving a narrow power band without it.
> Coming from the subarat it'd be a big
> dissapointment. I was just hoping there'd be a
> reasonable option. I wish I liked/could drive RWD
> on gravel/snow but it just doesn't feel right to
> me. I was just born too late and although I've
> driven LOTS of rear drivers on the street and LOVE
> them they scare me when it gets slippy.

Dave you know that while I have a nice Cossie 4x4, I've only rallied my old Saab.
Trust me, if you haven't driven a rwd car set up to work on loose surfaces then you don't know how they are---when properly set up.
You have to have good compliance in the back, and long travel lets you set it up so it will squat and still have travel left for the bumps.
It has to squat even if there isn't tons of grip.

That's what people mean when they say that decent 4wd cars can cover a multitude of sins.

I still love my old Saab, but this one thing, the high cost/sparse availablity of affordable gearsets, leads me to conclude that I can't truthfully reccomend a fwd car unless i know the person has the budget to get the indispensable gearset and final dive and a good diff.

Were that no such a problem, I'd say go for whatever floats your boat.

Alas no good gearset means limitations on what powerbands you can use which means IF somebody else has a gearset, their car will be easier to KEEP going.
This makes a gearset a de facto requirement if you want to be competitive.

The need to squeeze small displacement motors to make power, and the attendant need for a good set of ratios to keep it boiling is why I push 2300 turbo motors.

A 400 dollar gearset and gobs of torque is enough.

> >
> > See me go at:
> > www.11tenths.com
> > In the long run Reality always wins.
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> david amor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > derek Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > If I recall I bought the real deal
> (1988) VW
> > > Motorsports gear box for my golf for
> $2900 -
> > used
> > > - it took a while to find it but when I
> did
> > it was
> > > not all that horrible to buy - this
> would be
> > a 5
> > > speed syncro box not a dog box. I am
> fairly
> > sure
> > > you can get dog gear sets for the Golf
> 02A
> > box for
> > > about the same price new from a view
> > vendors
> > > including Selhom.
> > >
> > > Lurch is right find a gear box then
> select
> > the car
> > > it fits - it is the hardest part of the
> FWD
> > > equation. Not that you need to run out
> and
> > get
> > > this bit of kit right off but if you
> keep the
> > car
> > > for any time at all you will want it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Well that's just the thing. I wouldn't
> bother
> > doing FWD WITHOUT a close ratio box and
> proper
> > LSD. Besides the competitive aspect it's just
> not
> > any fun driving a narrow power band without
> it.
> > Coming from the subarat it'd be a big
> > dissapointment. I was just hoping there'd be
> a
> > reasonable option. I wish I liked/could drive
> RWD
> > on gravel/snow but it just doesn't feel right
> to
> > me. I was just born too late and although
> I've
> > driven LOTS of rear drivers on the street and
> LOVE
> > them they scare me when it gets slippy.
>
> Dave you know that while I have a nice Cossie 4x4,
> I've only rallied my old Saab.
> Trust me, if you haven't driven a rwd car set up
> to work on loose surfaces then you don't know how
> they are---when properly set up.
> You have to have good compliance in the back, and
> long travel lets you set it up so it will squat
> and still have travel left for the bumps.
> It has to squat even if there isn't tons of grip.
>
>
> That's what people mean when they say that decent
> 4wd cars can cover a multitude of sins.
>
> I still love my old Saab, but this one thing, the
> high cost/sparse availablity of affordable
> gearsets, leads me to conclude that I can't
> truthfully reccomend a fwd car unless i know the
> person has the budget to get the indispensable
> gearset and final dive and a good diff.
>
> Were that no such a problem, I'd say go for
> whatever floats your boat.
>
> Alas no good gearset means limitations on what
> powerbands you can use which means IF somebody
> else has a gearset, their car will be easier to
> KEEP going.
> This makes a gearset a de facto requirement if you
> want to be competitive.
>
> The need to squeeze small displacement motors to
> make power, and the attendant need for a good set
> of ratios to keep it boiling is why I push 2300
> turbo motors.
>
> A 400 dollar gearset and gobs of torque is
> enough.
>
> > >
> > > See me go at:
> > > www.11tenths.com
> > > In the long run Reality always wins.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Wouldn't it be grand if life was fair.......

---

Gone fishing

Not knowing anything about hondas I looked up transmission stuff for a 99 civic si.

gearset: $1433.36
http://thmotorsports.com/carbonetic/carboneticgear-close-ratio/g-50050.aspx

4.9 final: $811.44
http://thmotorsports.com/carbonetic/carboneticgear-final-drive/ar7a1610/i-37935.aspx

LSD: $1116
http://thmotorsports.com/cusco/cusco-lsd-type-rs/lsd318cc15/i-98128.aspx

Total: $3360.36

Gearset and LSD prices are on par with what you'd pay for an RA gearset and similar cusco diff for a subaru. I havnt run the numbers for the gears vs stock gears and all that powrband mph shifty stuff because I dont really care too much, but someone who was interested could do that. But it would seem that that setup with one of those easy honda engine swaps would really make a screamer.

If you've got a VW with an 02a/02j transmission, here is a gear set:
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=02AJ-GS-3.5&Nav=5&SubNav=50
$2550

4.24 ring and pinion: $585
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=02A.409.424&Nav=5&SubNav=50

Diff: $899
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=DBV1820&Nav=5&SubNav=55

Total: $4034

Its a lot of money either way, but probably worth it if those costs arnt equal to 3 months worth of pay from work...

The Focus is a good platform but suffers form the gear set problem. You can get a nice Quaife gearset but it is $5,000 + the dif. If you go with a turbo the MTX-75 transmission will handle lots of power and is quite durable. Also has very torquey NA options like the 2.3 Duratec that is the same across the ford mazada lines.

Good suspension is available, brake upgrades are fairly easy.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not knowing anything about hondas I looked up
> transmission stuff for a 99 civic si.

Thanks Carl. Seems some people have different ideas of what close means.
I guess as long as a gearset si closer in any way than some theroretical horrble box then it can without shame be called "CLOSE" ratio
Here's the ratios from the link:
Carbonetic Gear to Gear Ratio
1st : 3.077(13:40)
3rd : 1.652(23:38)
4th : 1.308(26:34)
5th : 1.033(30:31)

Whew!
I always yap about the Borg-WarnerT5 Camaro V8 box or the T5 Ford "Z" spec or the Cosworth OEM road car box which starts at 2.95 and ends---for our purposes it's a 4 speed+ TRANSIT gear----with 1:1 top but those I don't call CLOSE. Just OK.

You know there's a difference tween "not bad' and GOOD
I mean my old Saab rally box is like 2.45 for first and 0,96 for 4th, and the ubiquitous Ford rally box used all over the world often has something like this on smaller motors like 1600 to 2,0 revvers:
PN10145 2.25 1.53 1.16 1.0 0.84 ROAD/RALLY/RACE £690.00
>
> gearset: $1433.36
>
>
> 4.9 final: $811.44

Again high revvers are often even shorter (esspecially if they are on 15" wheels) more like 5.15 to 5.3

My old Saab is 5.45:1
>
>
> LSD: $1116
>
>
> Total: $3360.36
>
> Gearset and LSD prices are on par with what you'd
> pay for an RA gearset and similar cusco diff for a
> subaru. I havnt run the numbers for the gears vs
> stock gears and all that powrband mph shifty stuff
> because I dont really care too much, but someone
> who was interested could do that. But it would
> seem that that setup with one of those easy honda
> engine swaps would really make a screamer.
>
> If you've got a VW with an 02a/02j transmission,
> here is a gear set:
>
> $2550
>
> 4.24 ring and pinion: $585
>
>
> Diff: $899
>
>
> Total: $4034
>
> Its a lot of money either way, but probably worth
> it if those costs arnt equal to 3 months worth of
> pay from work...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah I got interested in Honda stuff since Dave
> Coleman pointed out the quite adequete suspension
> travel. Combined with the light weight chasis and
> the CRAZY HP/L available it sounds like a winner.
> On paper atleast. Why such late model stuff
> Paulinho?

I mentioned the later models because of the strut front suspensions. There's tons more rally bits available to the older integras and civics though. For example a set of Proflex for 02+RSX/Civic is about $8k, for a 92-01 Integra/civic is $3k-$4k. The good thing about the newer ones is the 6spd and the K engine. More torque than the older B series and they respond very well to mods.

As for gearboxes and close ratio gearsets, the stock 6spd is fairly good with the 4.4 final drive. But if you want more out of it, there's tons of final drives available from $350 to $600. 4.7 5.0 5.4 5.8 and 6.3. I have a 6.33 and love it. But you can also get a gearset for $2760. It will get you 1st - 2.313 2nd -1.650 3rd -1.304 4th - 1.080 5th - 0.958 6th - 0.851 and LSD's are from $500 for a helical to 800-1100 for a plate type.

These cars are really well supported in terms of aftermarket equipment.

Also on the newer Integras/Civics you dont have to spend $8k on a set of decent suspenders, I got mine from JVL and they handle awesome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2008 10:44AM by Cosworth.

I love the sound of your Integra.

---

Grant Hughes

Just curious, why is it cheaper for a ring/pinion for a 02A/02J than an 020? I guess I'm a big newb when it comes down to VW engines/trans parts and pieces. And since I got a 100% stock 88 16v motor and trans I want to find the best bang for the buck to get quicker, and I feel a LSD and final drive is the best upgrade I can get right now.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not knowing anything about hondas I looked up
> transmission stuff for a 99 civic si.
>
> gearset: $1433.36
> 4.9 final: $811.44
> LSD: $1116
> Total: $3360.36
>
>
> If you've got a VW with an 02a/02j transmission,
> here is a gear set:
>
> $2550
> 4.24 ring and pinion: $585
> Diff: $899
> Total: $4034
>
> Its a lot of money either way, but probably worth
> it if those costs arnt equal to 3 months worth of
> pay from work...

Hey Billy,

Assuming that we're talking about the same 4.25 r&P for the 020, p/n 020409143AG, it's about $380 +shipping from www.1stvwparts.com.

That's on the short list for our rabbit after destroying our nice one!

-Bill

Bill Beers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Billy,
>
> Assuming that we're talking about the same 4.25
> r&P for the 020, p/n 020409143AG, it's about
> $380 +shipping from www.1stvwparts.com.
>
> That's on the short list for our rabbit after
> destroying our nice one!
>
> -Bill

Is it time to order another 5 sets of 020 4.47s?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> david amor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah I got interested in Honda stuff since
> Dave
> > Coleman pointed out the quite adequete
> suspension
> > travel. Combined with the light weight chasis
> and
> > the CRAZY HP/L available it sounds like a
> winner.
> > On paper atleast. Why such late model stuff
> > Paulinho?
>
> I mentioned the later models because of the strut
> front suspensions. There's tons more rally bits
> available to the older integras and civics though.
> For example a set of Proflex for 02+RSX/Civic is
> about $8k, for a 92-01 Integra/civic is $3k-$4k.
> The good thing about the newer ones is the 6spd
> and the K engine. More torque than the older B
> series and they respond very well to mods.
>
> As for gearboxes and close ratio gearsets, the
> stock 6spd is fairly good with the 4.4 final
> drive. But if you want more out of it, there's
> tons of final drives available from $350 to $600.
> 4.7 5.0 5.4 5.8 and 6.3. I have a 6.33 and love
> it. But you can also get a gearset for $2760. It
> will get you 1st - 2.313 2nd -1.650 3rd -1.304 4th
> - 1.080 5th - 0.958 6th - 0.851 and LSD's are from
> $500 for a helical to 800-1100 for a plate type.
>
> These cars are really well supported in terms of
> aftermarket equipment.
>
> Also on the newer Integras/Civics you dont have to
> spend $8k on a set of decent suspenders, I got
> mine from JVL and they handle awesome.
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Nov 12, 2008 by
> Cosworth.


Now your car must GO! with a 6.33. But what 6.3 out of what car or from whom?

Does everyone not agree that this car should be very fast???

Sounds like a decent fwd car, no?

---

Gone fishing

I wonder if chere paulinho is not giving us the tooth counts of the ring and pinion the way many European contries usually quote things.

I say "5.45" but that's cause we'ze a spikkin' Norte Americanese, but were I a'spikkin Swedish I'd a beeze a saying "7:38" or I used to have "6:35" which we say 5.83:1 here.

Hey Paulinho, check and report.
I think the tooth count for "6:33" is 6 on pinion and 33 on ring gear and that makes 5.5:1 and that makes more sense looking at the ratios in the box.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Looked around on the site, I think most of what you found was for a 2000 B-series trans. I've heard that the B series trans is a bit more durable than the new 6 speed and that some guys have taken the 5 speed, and with an adapter plate, have put it on the K series. Something like 1000hp drag cars on stock GSR trans or something silly like that. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong though. I got out of the Honda tuning right when the K series motor came in, so all my tricks and trade are with the B series motors.

However, from just plugging and chugging a K series with a stock trans ratio, a 6.33 final drive, and stock 8000rpm redline you got a pretty damn good 1-5spd and a nice 6th gear for transits. Even with the buddy club 5.46 final drive you're looking good.

To me, it seems you can get a good ratio by going with a real high final drive on the K series 6 speed, either keep the stock LSD and later upgrade to a clutch type or just go straight clutch type from the start. Don't know how well the gears would deal with some tuned K series motors or rally abuse, but seems like a good start to work with.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not knowing anything about hondas I looked up
> transmission stuff for a 99 civic si.
>
> gearset: $1433.36
>
>
> 4.9 final: $811.44
>
>
> LSD: $1116
>
>
> Total: $3360.36
>
> Gearset and LSD prices are on par with what you'd
> pay for an RA gearset and similar cusco diff for a
> subaru. I havnt run the numbers for the gears vs
> stock gears and all that powrband mph shifty stuff
> because I dont really care too much, but someone
> who was interested could do that. But it would
> seem that that setup with one of those easy honda
> engine swaps would really make a screamer.
>
> If you've got a VW with an 02a/02j transmission,
> here is a gear set:
>
> $2550
>
> 4.24 ring and pinion: $585
>
>
> Diff: $899
>
>
> Total: $4034
>
> Its a lot of money either way, but probably worth
> it if those costs arnt equal to 3 months worth of
> pay from work...