Recce notes

Quote
Morison

What troubles me, slightly, is that an example designed to show that more steering input is needed at higher speeds starts off with the assumptions that under steer is directly related to the g-force of the corner and that the under steer tendencies of a chassis are linear - which guarantees the result. In short, it is like saying 'OK, to prove I'm right lets assume I'm right.'

Pretty much an assumption made by 1000s of vehicle engineers on a daily basis and backed up by lots and lots of objective instrumented test, which I've performed and analyzed many times. Linear range for chassis understeer, as mentioned above, is typically regarded and above 0.05g and below 0.3g and is directly related to g level (wtf else would it be related to? color?). The range of linearity changes with the way the suspension is tuned but these are typically held ranges in the industry. There are the occasional pieces of shit which have very limited linear ranges but the value presented for understeer is a reasonable average for a typical road car.

I also assumed acceleration due to gravity was equal to 32.2 ft/sec^2 and the vehicle had 4 tires and a steering wheel. Troll much?

Not trolling at all.
Just said your presentation troubled me a bit. At least I didn't call your math 'poo poo' for no good reason.
Had you led with the fact that this was normally accepted as fact by automotive engineers, that'd be different.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Not trolling at all.
Just said your presentation troubled me a bit. At least I didn't call your math 'poo poo' for no good reason.
Had you led with the fact that this was normally accepted as fact by automotive engineers, that'd be different.

Seriously?

Half of physics class was accepting random things. The other half was blocks on ramps.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

aaaand out of left field; you know what I hate? the minus and plus. I could totally do without that noise. I end up just hearing the minus or the plus, and forget which number was called.

Which is interesting since even a first time and slow driver I worked with (on jemba) was able to see and appreciate the difference between grades including pluses and minuses. I had removed the pluses and minuses, which is common wisdom for rookies, and the Driver asked why some corners of the same grade seemed tighter and some were more open.
I've fount the pluses and minuses hugely important, particularly when going quickly and committing to the notes. Arguably the minuses are more important for staying on the road and the pluses for going fast.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Which is interesting since even a first time and slow driver I worked with (on jemba) was able to see and appreciate the difference between grades including pluses and minuses. I had removed the pluses and minuses, which is common wisdom for rookies, and the Driver asked why some corners of the same grade seemed tighter and some were more open.
I've fount the pluses and minuses hugely important, particularly when going quickly and committing to the notes. Arguably the minuses are more important for staying on the road and the pluses for going fast.

The first couple rally's I ran we took out the plus/minus just to keep things "simple". As things progressed the difference between plus and minus makes a big difference; there is a world between a -4 and a +5.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

I've had drivers who removed + and - because the amount of information hit their overload and they can't process the extra info.
I can't stand it as the variance in a single number is too high when combined.

If there is one really good thing about video games like Colin McRae 2005 and Richard Burns Rally (with numnotes loaded) is that you can get a little training on converting what you hear into what you are doing.
Jemba is there for consistency, not because it is a good system for all or potentially most drivers. Ken and Alex regularly said that they felt severely handicapped by their lack of ability to make world class pace notes during the beginning of their WRC career. Pace notes by definition should be faster, just recce is not standard at events yet and people are not familiar or trained on a system to use that isn't Jemba-like or how to develop a system that works best for them.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
Jemba is there for consistency, not because it is a good system for all or potentially most drivers. Ken and Alex regularly said that they felt severely handicapped by their lack of ability to make world class pace notes during the beginning of their WRC career. Pace notes by definition should be faster, just recce is not standard at events yet and people are not familiar or trained on a system to use that isn't Jemba-like or how to develop a system that works best for them.

Actually, a good part of what Arne is doing with the Jemba system is generating baseline notes for teams to use for their first time at WRC events. Generally these would be PWRC or SWRC teams (and WRCA I beleive.)
The idea that Jemba 'stage notes' are fundimentally different from 'pace notes' is only a north american concept. Yes, there are several different ways to write pace notes, and numeric grading of corners using 1 to 6 is only one way. While there are some radically different systems out there, most (at least most I've seen/heard) boil down to a fairly straight forward description of the road with modifiers to help the driver attack the road properly.

Certainly you won't see 'flat' as a modifier in Jemba (and you shouldn't in ANY organiser supplied notes) where you will tend to see it in pace notes.

The biggest problem for Block, and Duplessis, was that they didn't have enough experience writing detailed notes from scratch and writing notes they could trust. Using a system that mirrors Jemba wasn't the problem.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

The biggest problem for Block, and Duplessis, was that they didn't have enough experience

OMFG!

Is it 2012?

Was that a clap of the hands and a trumpet sounding?
Is the world ending?

(woooozy) I's gonna faint (clunk)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Morison

The biggest problem for Block, and Duplessis, was that they didn't have enough experience

OMFG!

Is it 2012?

Was that a clap of the hands and a trumpet sounding?
Is the world ending?

(woooozy) I's gonna faint (clunk)

Must be troll day. The RaLlY cLoWn made it to my tire thread, too.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

John.
Ask Block what his weaknesses are and writing notes (fixing autocorrect from my phone) will certainly be one of them.
Look at the snippet of in car from duplessis in Finland and they are clearly not notes you can commit to.

You act like I'm a mindless block fanboi... I'm not, and never have been. (neither do I blindly dismiss or discount him.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2012 10:18AM by Morison.

Keith, it's not a value judgement to say somebody doesn't have enough experience. It's not like the foolish boy above with zero experience who so grossly mistakes his ability to type inanities for intelligence.
Block simply doesn't have enough experience, and more importantly driving well just isn't important enough to him to buckle down and do what's needed.

You aren't the subject, I don't act like you're a fanboi, I believe you just think you can arrive at exact truths on every subject you speak of just by talking/writing regardless of your own experience, or lack thereof.

In other words, you believe your guesses at explanations trump all other experience...

Much like a whole raft of simple mechanical problems what drives an individual to push themselves isn't just a simple thing that anybody, particularly people who have never done something near or similar, can just say its this or that, at least with any seriousness.

Block is acknowledged by any with any experience a "gentleman driver" or "tourist" in the WRC...he does OK but even this last weekend he looses on average, per stage, the time about equal to the final gap the real drivers did at the end of the event...
That's not really even on the same page.....

That's not saying he's a bad person, it says the average Joe off the street with a similar amount of time in car could probably do about the same, it's nothing remarkable...

It doesn't mean enough to his life to accumulate the time in car to develop the motor skills, and routine needed to move up---aside from attrition of those in front of him he really didn't improve anything compared with a few years ago..
Of course if you only want to drive a few WRC events and play foofy slidey crap, how would anybody accumulate time and routine.

It's the same problem on a local scale: there's not enough attraction to drive well that people will do the internal calculus and do the mental triage and say "if I want to drive well then.....maybe I can't have a '04 whatever as a daily driver....maybe I could have a old but solid van instead of a newer turbodiesel----and have a hot motor AND a real gearset instead..

but as I've said many times, you evidently speak a similar language to me at first glance, but all the words and their implications are totally different from differing life experiences.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison
Actually, a good part of what Arne is doing with the Jemba system is generating baseline notes for teams to use for their first time at WRC events. Generally these would be PWRC or SWRC teams (and WRCA I beleive.)
The idea that Jemba 'stage notes' are fundimentally different from 'pace notes' is only a north american concept.

Actually Keith, the biggest part of what Arne is doing is trying to make money.
It's not a North American concept. It's a fact.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
Actually Keith, the biggest part of what Arne is doing is trying to make money.

No shit, but in talking with Arne and seeing what he does and how he operates, he's also not a lot different from many 'sideline' businesses in rally - he just has some high profile products (jemba, coralba.) That's no different than saying the biggest part of what JVL is trying to do is make money.

But the only way he'll make money is if he has clients for the product, and he does. It's also why he can generate the notes in 1-6, 6-1, 1-10, 10-1, descriptive or just about ant other format you want.

Quote
NoCoast
It's not a North American concept. It's a fact.

When I've talked with Arne, who travels across the world working on notes, he's said the idea that 'stage notes' are somehow different than 'pace notes' is unique to north america. In his own material he says he generates organiser pace notes.
http://jemba.se/inertia.htm

(edit to add)
Don't think I'm saying Jemba is as good as a well written set of notes written by the team themselves - I'm not. As a set of baselines, however, they give consistent corner grading, measured intervals and a reasonable place to start.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2012 10:13AM by Morison.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You aren't the subject, I don't act like you're a fanboi,

Then I mistook your post above, the one feigning shock and disbelief, as a commentary on the quote from me that you used. (Something any reasonable man would think.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
I believe you just think you can arrive at exact truths on every subject you speak of just by talking/writing regardless of your own experience, or lack thereof.

In much of what we talk about, particularly what I weigh in on, I don't think exact truths exist. In most cases my 'truths' are simply perspectives based on observation, experience and/or conversations. I wouldn't expect anyone to take what I say on any subject as anything more than my opinion and I would expect them to weigh that opinion based on my percieved knowledge/experience/expertise. To expect anyone would blindly accept anything I say as an 'exact truth' is beyond arrogant.
Beyond that, everybody sees the world around them in terms of their own experiences - that's to be expected. Learning from others, exchanging knowledge and experience through interaction, reading books or actually doing things with our own hands are, after all, just parts of our overall experience.

Quote
john vanlandingham
In other words, you believe your guesses at explanations trump all other experience...

Saying this about me only proves how little you know about me, who I am or how I think/operate. When I have strong opinions I'll admit that I tend to be difficult to sway, but I am always open to discussion and willing to listen to others. I actually learn a lot and quite enjoy when people bring a different experience to the table.

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john vanlandingham
Block is acknowledged by any with any experience a "gentleman driver" or "tourist" in the WRC...

Once again, you give me shit for stating the obvious and you trot this out? I don't think Ken, or anyone other than ill informed fanbois, pretends differently.

Quote
john vanlandingham
It doesn't mean enough to his life to accumulate the time in car to develop the motor skills, and routine needed to move up---aside from attrition of those in front of him he really didn't improve anything compared with a few years ago.

And many would say he has his priorities straight. He's past his prime for actually
making a 'career' in the WRC and has a family, business and other responsibilities to look after.

Quote
john vanlandingham
It's the same problem on a local scale: there's not enough attraction to drive well that people will do the internal calculus and do the mental triage and say "if I want to drive well then.....maybe I can't have a '04 whatever as a daily driver....maybe I could have a old but solid van instead of a newer turbodiesel----and have a hot motor AND a real gearset instead.

Or maybe there are just more people who are content to 'play foofy slidey crap' rather than change their standard of living to chase cheap trophies, no sponsorship and no purse money.

Quote
john vanlandingham
but as I've said many times, you evidently speak a similar language to me at first glance, but all the words and their implications are totally different from differing life experiences.

All I know is one of us gets paid to work with the language in question, often trying to make sense out of unclear and imprecise use of it.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.