Helical VS Clutch Type Differentials?

So which clutch diffs can you drive out on with a busted axle? My KAAZ can't and it's shimmed pretty stiff.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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KTurner
So which clutch diffs can you drive out on with a busted axle? My KAAZ can't and it's shimmed pretty stiff.

interesting. iirc, breakaway torque on mine is < 60 ft/lbs, and it's marginally drivable on a broken axle - it's finished 3 or 4 cone squishing runs on one axle, and drives around the paddock well enough. reverse just spins (since it's "1.5 way"?), and driving onto the trailer is a no-go though.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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john vanlandingham
If I had my druthers, for longer life and much better reliability I'd choose something that looks like this..see the difference?

The gear to pinions and gear to plates is same tooth count as opposed to the change seen on the Kaaz?

What about some discussion on differences between ramp angles and 1, 1.5, and 2 way stuff. Pics would be cool.

We're going to rebuild and shim a few Supra diffs with the Weir stage 2 kit that should give around 250 pounds breakaway torque in coming weeks. Hoping the clutch plates and such are decent and reusable though we have four or five differentials to mix and match to build a few good ones.
http://www.weirperformance.com/maxgriplsdkits.html

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Grant Hughes

In my 500+ whp Evo (no lawyer mandated straws in Colorado) rear diff I've used the a Cusco 2-way, a Carbonetics 1.5-way, a stock 8 plate diff (2 plates are installed backwards for the US spec cars so they don't lock as hard), and a ShepTrans re-shimmed 12 plate diff.

Cusco and Carbonetics both blew to bits in under 500 miles, the stock one didn't lock hard enough for my liking, and the re-shimmed with 12 plates from Shep has been the cheapest and most reliable while still letting me steer with the throttle. (Full disclosure - Shep has been my trans & diff guy since I bought the car and for 3 or 4 seasons as a sponsor.) I think retail on those rebuilds is ~$400 so IMO, not a bad deal at all when compared to the $1000+ Cusco and Carbonetics options.

Dave

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john vanlandingham
So whatddya see different tween the pretty piccies and what I posted?

I'll say what I warn about IS a problem with Kaaz, and that every time I hear of their non-existent customer service, the ancient design of the parts I'm hitting you over the head with and bad "months to deliver off the shelf parts" means I'd look elsewhere.

I see two differences:
1) lots of teeth on the plates, rather than 6-8 on the kaaz-like ones.

Good, but more important is they have an angle on them like modern splines...
Look at all kinds of ancient shit and the splines are square form.. Like on my saab where everything was designed in the 40s and 50s. Or Fords aold inputshaft on clutch where the disc sits---or even the fist version of Ford's MS904x4 box, square form and 10 splines.
Look at stuff from the 60s from Germany: 30^o "pressure angle", or 60^o total, then nicer stuff like more modern Fords: 45^o or 90^o total..
Square always generates a huge stress at the corner, right where the lug sticks out of the disc, and that's where all old school diff plate begin to die.
And the Kaaz, trying to get tons of friction area with all those super thin plates and discs, creates a problem from just too thin material. So sure if all the ears stay on for a while there may be more friction area and whatever, but fat lotta good that does when all the ears are floating around in the gearbox
The spline style is also good in that as you say more is better but spline type means that the "lug" part can be lower and that means either more area for a given disc diameter or same area and a bigger hole for bigger side and planet gears---which is a big deal inside modern FWD gearboxes which frequently have very very small diiffs---and no way in the world to up the diff size (like those lucky bastids wif Real Wheel Drive who can zot on a few tabs and shove a big axle under their car without fawking with any of the rest of the car.)

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2) single solid bar for one of the pairs of pinion gears.

I'm guessing that #1 is what you're pointing out - more teeth = less load per tooth. I know folks have sheared off the teeth on kaaz plates before, even with non-existent non-turbo honda torque.

No shit, they do and to me, and considering the delays and the price, too frequently...

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Unfortunately, the only clutch diff that I know is available for the D-series transmissions (mfactory) is a copy of the cusco/kaaz/etc - with 6-8 teeth on the discs.

Sit down and actually measure the diffs. and check splines. PREVIOUSLY back in the mid/late 80s, ring gear bolts pattern, bearing position and everything else was same from 1200 Civic day one to 2,2liter Quaaludes,

and all the heroes said "Yo! Dooooooooooood, this fits only blah blah blah--and you don't want a clutch plate diff (delivered with around 45 ft/lbs breakaway) it'll like rip the wheels right out of your hand and stuffs mang. Its certain death!!!! he's saying this to my friend who had sat and measured everything we together could think of and who the evening before had driven the mighty Saab V4 with around 110-112 ft/lb breakaway and loved it and I was on the extenion and we're giggling like schoolgirls (woooooo oooo certian death!! Teeee heeee!!! I'm afraid!!! tee heeeee)

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Who makes the diff that you posted? edit: looks like it's a 'Gripper' diff.

Yeah it's a Gripper. The seem like good guys when i spoke to them when they came on the market..they listen..maybe they could say what if anything is the differences and if that is a deal killer...I'm not the smarest guy but I do know a lot of mechanical type junk and stuff and being old I've seen old stuff and they way that manufacturers solve problems. When I say the spline form ears, espeically the outer ears it was one of those damn that is fawkin smrat! oments.
It shows some good thinking about a decades old problem that everybody else just kept on keepin on..

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I've only had to deal with Kaaz's customer service once - not great, not terrible either. It was about 2-3 weeks to get the part that I needed - considering that it was coming from Japan [I don't think KAAZ usa stocks anything], right after the tsunami, it wasn't bad. $$$ for a freakin' speedo gear though.

I think Kevin just above had loads of fun with them, I know Service nazi Robert was waiting for a couple of ring gear bolts for Tom buress VW box where they made up their own bolt size and head size--smoooth move. Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

DO not get a KAAZ for vw unless you have to. Or you never want to rebuild it, 2 times I have had to wait 4-6 months for parts.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

So does this one get the RAD Yummy award?

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Grant Hughes

Naw, those wimpy ass little springs are wimpy ass little. A nice simple indestructible belleville spring would be way cooler.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The OS Giken one is neat in a way - springs to create a bit of inverse preload (takes a bit before the ramps start to work) so that it can have good locking ability but still turn with power off. Preload comes in with bellville washers on the ends like normal. Have a friend who runs one in a roadrace car. No idea of rally durability or necessity.

My experience with OS Giken: I have installed 2 in an autocross Honda S2000 for a friend, and the first one tore all the splines out of the center section in 3 events, which also ruined the stub shafts, and now the second one has self destructed. The second one was a suposed re-design for added durability.

Hmmm. You wouldn't think it would be that damn hard to make a limited slip diff that works.

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john vanlandingham

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fliz

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Tom B
clutch, helical is no bueno on gravel

But the best 2wd driver I know in North America, Jon Nichols in Quebec, said "If all I had was a Quaiffe for a winter rally, I would load the trailer".

Ha! This quote gave me a laugh since Jon could kick ass in the snow with a Quaife or an open diff or whatever anyway.... back in the day.

Speaking of which, not to spoil all the fun of pricey hardware comparos, but with 130hp who needs an LSD at all anyway??? Left foot braking is the DIY LSD. Seemed to work fine for me back in a Prod Golf with open diff. Including the snow. But I know, not as sexy as fancy hardware.

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Aaron Luptak

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KTurner
So which clutch diffs can you drive out on with a busted axle? My KAAZ can't and it's shimmed pretty stiff.

interesting. iirc, breakaway torque on mine is < 60 ft/lbs, and it's marginally drivable on a broken axle - it's finished 3 or 4 cone squishing runs on one axle, and drives around the paddock well enough. reverse just spins (since it's "1.5 way"?), and driving onto the trailer is a no-go though.

This is my car breaking an axle at a hairpin and look how far the Kaaz diff took me after that!

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mekilljoydammit
Hmmm. You wouldn't think it would be that damn hard to make a limited slip diff that works.

It isn't that hard. Just make it the side and planet gears bigger, make the plates thick enough, make the case out on at least "cats steel" shot peen the hell out of it, or preferable steel.

But.

Problem is the horrible compromises designers have to do on LENGTHS of things when engines and gearboxes are placed in unnatural positions and in narrow spaces.
A LOT of traverse boxes have difffs SMALLER than the little thing in my old ancient Saab--the diff was designed in about 1955.
The halfshaft spline diameter was the same on my Saab --designed for maybe 38 hp as Dave Clarks gawddam 2.2 liter turbo GLH Doodge and the diff case was shorter, samller dia for the main part and the taper bearing seat was sunk or inset inwards on the one side--reducing interior space even more.

Solution, buy a car that parts can be EASILY and AFFORDABLY
upsized to something popular....

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

http://www.drenth-gearboxes.com/products/differentials/honda-civic-type-r.html


if its in the budget

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lawrence knox aka fidel
knox motorspors
knoxmotorsports.us