MaxAttack! cars - my thoughts on how to win it

Jake, you're absolutely right, good competition will help the sport evolve! As to arguing which RX-7 is the best for rally, who cares, it's an RX-7. If I were to try to compete in the MaxAttack at OT, the things Pete and I discussed would be the first things I would change (IE rear bushings, they're cheap and widely available!). In reference to the cage being slammed into the body, by the rule it is supposed to be, but I've seen many home cage jobs, though very good by design and build, were not as close to the body in the crucial places. And many MaxAttacker will have to do their own cages in order to save the loot they need to travel and enter. Good cage design is extra important in 1gens. I would love to build another 1gen chassis utilizing the front 2gen xmember, but i really think the 2gen body has a ton of potential and can be built with less effort than the first gen considering the fab necessary to change the 1gen chassis downfalls. Yes, the 2gen chassis is heavier, and Pete, I did say it was a benefit. Without the words to convince, you would just need to drive it to understand it. I also think that, though complicated, the 2gen IRS is less flawed than the 1gen. There are many updates to fix the "problems" associated with it.

Anyway, addressing whether or not my 2gen would be competitive to past RX's like Havirs or Hursts, hard to say.It would definitely need some basic upgrades. I I could look up Prescott times and compare mine to Havirs. Could be interesting. I will say that there is no way I had as much power as he did. He did very well one at Prescott one year, can't remember what position he finished, but I was around at the end when he came in. I was on hiatus from rally, in between my 1gen and 2gen obsession. I'll look into it, could be interesting! I'm not at all familiar with Hursts RX. I will say that at Rim '05, Bill Malik in his beautifully prepared G2 Volvo only beat us by 20 secs, and he has tons more money and prep into that than I did, not to mention more HP, better suspenders, Dog Box, etc. Good driver too. Only a competitive drive would truly prove anything, though. What I can say about Havir and Hurst is that my approach to building my 2gen is very different than those. Mine was based on a small budget, a lot of DIY, and trying to keep most things stock for budget reasons. If and when I decide to build or update my car to MaxAttack caliber, I will take a different approach building the car, but not how I drive it. My favorite quote, although quoted by many, is "to finish first, you must first finish". I think only loudmouth Pete "rallytaff" Morris would argue with me about that, and only just to argue.

And just to clarify, Pete, I never rallied the GSL-SE. If I had, it absolutely would have been a better car all around than the 2 '79's I ran the piss out of. When I wrecked my final 1gen, I made a pledge to myself about those cars, and it will stand forever, FOR E V E R! (quoted from The Sandlot).

Jake, I would love to discuss RX-7's and rally with you sometime over some beers! You've done a great thing here, and it's been along time since I've had a topic I've felt compelled to discuss in such detail. Hopefully this MaxAttack program will be long lived, I want to compete on such a competive playing field!

Peace and can't wait for the responses!

Cable

---

Cable Rhodes
Boise, Idaho
'87 Mazda RX-7 Turbo

Here is my hope for MaxAttack.
Drivers and car builders see MaxAttack sticking around for years to come so invest the money into building new 2WD cars from current showroom models, not GrF soon to be Historic class cars. This would get the ball rolling again on the evolution of 2WD rallying as we know it in the US. For a moment there 2 years ago, looked like Dodge and Mazda would be mixing it up which would have been great competitive fun but Dodge pulled out of a 1-horse show before Mazda's car was completed. Anyhow, once manufacturers realize new models are being rallied and with inceased MaxAttack media they begin sponsoring teams. Until this happens, most everyone with 2WD (except maybe Lurch), will still be paying to rally out of their own pocket. All this talk about building neat GrF cars makes great talk, and I bet some well-driven GrF cars will win MaxAttack events but doubt a newbie with a GrF car has much a chance against the couple 2wd veterens with GrF cars.

Many of the post above imply cheap cars and low budget. Why? Now there is prize $. Now is a chance for 2Wd to take a step forward with a chance more people can be paid by a manufacturer to race but no one seems to be thinking about taking that step.

What did Sprongls choose the last couple years in Canada, their expensive Open class Evo out of their pocket or the P2 class factory Suzuki free-ride? No brainer.

So now, given Jake's criteria, think about what fast current or near future 2WD models are being sold, contact manufacturer with proposal in hopes of getting $ to build car, build car even if they don't give you anything, rally it and send proposal again. If manufacturer still says no, look to aftermarket suppliers for current model. Check out the SlowBoy Racing servicerig and new car and don't tell me it did not work for ACP. Do you want to be paid to rally a shiny new car or not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 12:07AM by CommanderSalamander.

Dave, you bring up a good point, and I don't doubt that some people will go that route. MaxAttack is an awesome concept, and we're in deep debt to those who set this up. That being said I think there is debate as to which current cars are really great candidates. Many can be rallied, but how many are a step up for our purposes considering suspension design, strength, and even things like seating position. Now, I'd love to rally a new Mazdaspeed3 (I admit knowing little about the car) but the cost of a car like this is just too high for average joe rally guy to consider. You could get a newish Naturally aspirated car for less, but then you need to look at strapping on a turbo for $5000 to compete for MaxAttack crowns.

Don't get me wrong. I hope people go the route you describe successfully, but there are alot of us out there who see a chance to compete for something real, against real competition, without taking out a second mortgage in the hope of attracting manufacturer attention (and possibly stuffing new shiny car before that happens).

Me, I've been looking at moving away from DSM and into 2WD for a long time. Although my Talon will probably see a couple more rallies I'm going the JVL route and purchased an XR4TI. It sure has some limitations, and it's sure not the only way to go...but I can already see (as I use it as a daily driver) why JVL pushes these cars...so, in the spirit of this thread:

Strong body
Good interior room and seating position (one of the DSM drawbacks)
Strong motor capable of reliable 300hp without too much trouble (also a good aftermarket with cheaper parts than foreign motors)
Easy solutions to real big brakes (stock brakes suck)
Easy route to T5 box. You can have that in the car for not too much $$, and then getting fancy gearsets is easy but hopefully not necessary(and cheap compared to your standard Jap FWD)
Rear suspension needs some sorting, but it doesn't sound like as much as the RX
Rear diff is a problem. There are solutions out there. Welding is the easiest, but this is MaxAttack, so doing it right will require some fab work to hang a different diff back there and get axles to fit.
The car is rare, but it seems that there are a number of broken cars selling for little $$ to act as spare shells or parts stores. They will thin out as years go by.

I'll be looking at JVL for much assistance, but one day this will be a car capable of winning a MaxAttack rally...we'll see if I am ever the driver to do it!

Good luck with all the builds...let's hear some different ideas!

Seriously, new cars? Scroll down the forum list in Construction and see we already had that discussion.

Club racers don't have the money to race a car someone would willingly make a car payment on just in hopes of getting sponsorship.

Especiall considering anyone running a budget newer car (Mazda3, Yaris, Civic, etc) wouldn't have a chance of beating turboed groupF entrants.

As it stands right now, the ONLY newer car I would consider for MaxAttack is the Mazdaspeed3. Sure, BMW probably makes something that would work, but that's STUPID money.

gemorris Wrote:
>
> Club racers don't have the money to race a car
> someone would willingly make a car payment on just
> in hopes of getting sponsorship.

What about cars that (sometimes literally) fell off the back of a truck, or insurance-auction (stolen/recovered, wrecked, etc) cars? Surely not everyone is plunking down $25k-35k for a new Impreza just as a starter shell, are they?

> Especiall considering anyone running a budget
> newer car (Mazda3, Yaris, Civic, etc) wouldn't
> have a chance of beating turboed groupF entrants.

Turbos in Group 2 (F) ? Didn't think so. Am I wrong?

Cable, I think I just might have to take you up on your offer to drive it, if I fit.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

3-4 years ago Jerry Masluk(?) approached Toyota Canada with a proposal to build a rally car. He had never rallied before not a clue about the sport here other than attending an event and becoming passionate about it. Not only did they give him a new Prius, they gave him a V8 Tundra and funds too.

I hardly think Eric Brewmaster took out loans to get Mazda's attention. I bet it was a well written sponsorship proposal that got him the support he has.

Eric's post on the SS anouncement says it all:
"I am very thankful for the support that I have gotten over the years. I would not be able to rally without corporate support. We would like to see an atmosphere emerge where a lot of "regular Joes" who have a lot of driving talent have opportunities like this. In order for this to happen, 2wd rallying needs to be a valuable enough proposition for OEMs and the greater aftermarket to WANT to get involved.

Honda, VW, Pontiac, Ford, Dodge, Scion, Acura, Toyota, Chevrolet, Kia, Hyundai, Mazda, Saturn, Nissan, Saab, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, and Volvo brands all have some great rally worthy products on the showroom. We need to get them to take another look at rallying.

The key is to provide a vehicle by which the manufacturers want to market their cars and the aftermarket wants to market their goods. The benefits go both ways. While the manufacturers get their marketing dollars' worth, the organizers and competitors are getting opportunities not seen before save a few shining moments.

What if Saab sponsored Sam Bryan, Mazda sponsored me, DCX sponsored Chris Whiteman and Dougie, Mitsu sponsored Lauchlin, and Toyota sponsored Ralph K. all in the same year? If we make this thing attractive enough, I can see GOOD grassroots drivers getting REAL support from real companies...and enough of them to actually have real competition. Noteworthy competition, that gets press. It feeds on itself. More press, more support. It is the act of growing a motorsport.

But the onus is on YOU, the Max Attack! competitor as well. As the site develops, there will be educational content to help you learn how to approach companies. You will need to send in a bio and photos. Ideally, we want a Max Attackers! section where, from your bio, you can link to a blog that keeps the world apprised of what is going on in your team.

I hear you asking..."Why will the rallying be more noteworthy?" "Why do you suppose it will get more press than 2wd has in recent years?"

Because we expect the level of competition to go up. Look at the folks who crawled out of the woodwork when the X Games carrot was dangled at STPR last year. We think this kind of money will draw out the competitors for some real showdowns in 2wd again."

So what if Toyota says OK, they'll give you a Yaris. You'll be out there making all the events. Lesson learned from Frank Sprongl driving the Suzuki to podium finihses is its not the car, its the driver.

Absolutely Dave...great points. I would bet that we'll see some of both...people in newer machines, and successful drivers in older stuff. I think one of the beauties of 2WD is that a grassroots comptetitor can succeed (or have hope of succeeding) in older, simpler cars on a small (relatively) budget against the newest and best. 20 grand doesn't really get you in the door to Open class, or even PGT, but I'll bet a well built mid 90's $15,000 Honda or (take your pick of other cars) would challenge the fastest most modern 2wd rally worthy machines built for more than double that cost.

True...it's alot of driving talent. Would Frank win in a Swift against an equal driver in a Mazdaspeed3? No.

Bottom line: The recipie for a successful MaxAttacker! will contain the same essential ingredients regardless of the year model car being rallied. Right now I'm a fan of the 'proven route' to a worthy rally car thing...I don't have the time to develope a Yaris or whatever...but I hope others do have that time and run with it!

Damn , good dialog here!
And what we're seeing here yet again is the differing "approach" to the whole idea of what folks are looking for in racing or rally.

Some want it to be a passtime that shouldn't impinge too much on their lives, or involve too much dirty work, and nasty making of compromises in life in general.
Thus, it would be important for somebody else to give them lots of money and a car and pay other people to design and build and tune the car, and preferrable to transport it and service on events.
New shiney cars that OTHER PEOPLE can promote are the likely candidates for that scenario.


Some people look at rally as essentially competition trying to show WHO drives best on any given day.
It follows naturally from that that the car is a tool to help the driver drive well so the TOOL's effectiveness (strength, weigh, power, cost----RESULT potential) is the overarching consideration.

From this point of view, modern cars such as the Mazda in normal aspirated from have been shown to be only marginally better than very low spec VW Golves 20 years older. The primary problem was and is for many many LARGE MODERN cars, their weight.

And the only solution for weight is MORE POWER just be be on an even footing than any Club level privateer can build. And really that means A LOT MORE power, and that carries with it the need for something to compensate for the narrower powerband ($$ for close ratios) and to help acceleration (more $$ for final drive if it can be found at all, not a guaranteed situation and if I recall from talking to Lurchie, one that was never surmounted in the Mazda despite Mazda's direct support and a budget easily 10 times the next Gp2 car)

And remember that is just to be at the same place as a homebuilt car like Jon Nichols' VW, or Derek Bottles VW.

To many, if it means massive expenditures for seemingly no performance advantage, then why bother doing a particular car, EVEN IF SOMEBODY IS IS PATYING?

This can only make sense if the overarching reason is a few photos in the corner of some advertisement to lend a little "sporting" image to some otherwise ordinary car.

And as the likeihood of somebody being able to land a deal like the Sprongls deal is fairly slim, there just aren't that many multi-times National Championsships to put on a resume. The withdrawn support after such a short time for the Priapus deal shows how a soley Promo deal can last, and that's hardly the way to build a long term foundation for the sport.

We can only hope that no artifical bars will be rasied as so often were done and attempted to be done in the recent past to restrict older but still competitive cars so that there is only NEWER cars and by default gift them the Press attention, and with it the chances of sponsorship.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 11:37PM by john vanlandingham.

> > Especiall considering anyone running a
> budget
> > newer car (Mazda3, Yaris, Civic, etc)
> wouldn't
> > have a chance of beating turboed groupF
> entrants.
>
> Turbos in Group 2 (F) ? Didn't think so. Am I
> wrong?

No, I should have said turboed OR groupF entrants.

Again, I agree with JVL here (just not on which older car), why build a new car that can barely beat, or even compete with, older cars. I'd like to know how many new cars on the market actually have an oversquare engine. Seriously, other than straight up "performance" cars, how many? How exactly is someone supposed to get rally winning performance out of a 1.5l with a borexstroke of 2.9x3.3 (yaris) And nooooooo room under the hood to boot. (102bhp to move 2334lbs).


Civic Si is 3.4x3.4, so square, (197 bhp for 2877lbs) and already revs pretty high. I would ad that to the Mazdaspeed 3 as the only new cars even worth considering. Hey, if Nissan wants to throw me the keys to a versa and a titan with no rally experience, then great, I'll race the thing, but I don't see that happening.

Maybe engine geometry is a bagatelle here, but it's just one of the many obstacles new cars have to overcome in relation to older cars. Well I guess many is really just 3:

Cost
Weight
Engine Geometry(also, engine compartment cramptitude)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 11:37PM by gemorris.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some want it to be a passtime that shouldn't
> impinge too much on their lives, or involve too
> much dirty work, and nasty making of compromises
> in life in general.
> Thus, it would be important for somebody else to
> give them lots of money and a car and pay other
> people to design and build and tune the car, and
> preferrable to transport it and service on
> events.
> New shiney cars that OTHER PEOPLE can promote are
> the likely candidates for that scenario.

Why, not? Read your post above,....
"me included, just happen to have been lucky enough to find wonderful wives, buy houses, build garages and start families----as so being adults, push the plaything, the car, to the back burner." And some of us have all that and still manage 20 rallies a year and post dribble on the internet. Do-it-yourselfers more often either burn out, only compete in a couple rallies per season hoping not to wreak the car, run out $, become divorced and stop competing. I'll add that I seriously doubt Eric or Sprongl sat there while someone built them a car. getting help to get to go to more rallies is not a bad thing and how the 2wd field will become more competitive the entire season.

> Some people look at rally as essentially
> competition trying to show WHO drives best on any
> given day.
> It follows naturally from that that the car is a
> tool to help the driver drive well so the TOOL's
> effectiveness (strength, weigh, power,
> cost----RESULT potential) is the overarching
> consideration.

Yet those aren't different people. the point is you can get your fundage from elsewhere, go to more events and if you get funded to drive a less powerful car, then show how bad-ass a driver you are like Frank did in the Suzuki.

> From this point of view, modern cars such as the
> Mazda in normal aspirated from have been shown to
> be only marginally better than very low spec VW
> Golves 20 years older. The primary problem was and
> is for many many LARGE MODERN cars, their weight.

There are modern turbo cars available. Weight can be reduced, just takes the effort. Eric got the Mazda3 as a 'shell in white' and is another advantage of starting with a new car with some factory interest.

> And remember that is just to be at the same place
> as a homebuilt car like Jon Nichols' VW,

Have you ever been to Nichols' shop? Or seen his car? Nothing homebuilt about it.

> To many, if it means massive expenditures for
> seemingly no performance advantage, then why
> bother doing a particular car, EVEN IF SOMEBODY IS
> IS PAYING?

When someone else is paying you get to more events so that the 2WD championship is no longer couple car race with a tow hitch trophy. Someone else is paying leads to the most valuable resourse in developing our drivers; seat-time.

> few photos in the corner of some
> advertisement to lend a little "sporting" image to
> some otherwise ordinary car.

Companies have marketing budgets. If they don't use, the marketing departent gets less next finiancial year. So sometime they spend on whatever not expecting any return. I got $ from a US dealership for racing in Canada. The Prius guy got car, truck and $ from Toyota as tax break because his team was associated with a charity. Jon Hamilton perhaps got $ for his biodesiel scheme. Whatever works to pay bills to go rallying. If ralliers don't get it, some other motorsport punk (insert drifter) will.

> withdrawn
> support after such a short time for the Priapus
> deal shows how a soley Promo deal can last, and
> that's hardly the way to build a long term
> foundation for the sport.

Jerry was an idiot with no clue about motorsport; pissed off the series sponsors and sanctioning body (and probably Toyota too) and wouldn't listen to reason. The fact that he wanted to drive the car himself after just getting a drivers license didn't help either as he was scary to ride with on the street and I don't scare easy. Its no wonder. Bad example of why it won't work. Good example that it can happen by just asking.

> We can only hope that no artifical bars will be
> rasied as so often were done and attempted to be
> done in the recent past to restrict older but
> still competitive cars so that there is only NEWER
> cars and by default gift them the Press attention,
> and with it the chances of sponsorship.

Nobody is thinking that. Vaguely remember Jens single-handly squashed the SCCA new-world order. I want to see MaxAttack become big enough to support competitive fields in both an overall MaxAttack and GrF championships. Think Jake would like that too.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2007 09:05PM by CommanderSalamander.

I'm not all that experienced in the rally field, but I am in the homebuying one. Shift your focus to finding "a garage with a house attatched."

---

Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn , good dialog here!
> And what we're seeing here yet again is the
> differing "approach" to the whole idea of what
> folks are looking for in racing or rally.

Choices are nice. MaxAttack! is trying to create and environment where more choices are available to the average guy.

>
> Some want it to be a passtime that shouldn't
> impinge too much on their lives, or involve too
> much dirty work, and nasty making of compromises
> in life in general.

I think that in terms of sustainability, most people need to feel like they have a life. Rally can take over you life. For most humans this is not a healthy way to live long term. Also, using Burmeister as an example because he's the only one who has actually done it on his own, it's not a passtime. It's a lifestyle. He works his butt of on that car.

> Thus, it would be important for somebody else to
> give them lots of money

This money is earned. It takes a special skill and lots of effort. Just ask Burmeister.

and a car and pay other
> people to design and build and tune the car, and
> preferrable to transport it and service on
> events.
> New shiney cars that OTHER PEOPLE can promote are
> the likely candidates for that scenario.

Usually the people who fit the scenario you described above already have lots of cash.

>
>
> Some people look at rally as essentially
> competition trying to show WHO drives best on any
> given day.
> It follows naturally from that that the car is a
> tool to help the driver drive well so the TOOL's
> effectiveness (strength, weigh, power,
> cost----RESULT potential) is the overarching
> consideration.
>
> From this point of view, modern cars such as the
> Mazda in normal aspirated from have been shown to
> be only marginally better than very low spec VW
> Golves 20 years older. The primary problem was and
> is for many many LARGE MODERN cars, their weight.

Maybe we need to find modern smaller cars, or cars like the Mazdaspeed3 that has a turbo.

>
> And the only solution for weight is MORE POWER
> just be be on an even footing than any Club level
> privateer can build. And really that means A LOT
> MORE power, and that carries with it the need for
> something to compensate for the narrower powerband
> ($$ for close ratios) and to help acceleration
> (more $$ for final drive if it can be found at
> all, not a guaranteed situation and if I recall
> from talking to Lurchie, one that was never
> surmounted in the Mazda despite Mazda's direct
> support and a budget easily 10 times the next Gp2
> car)

It's important to know that with the protoge Lurch didn't have Mazda's entire resources on board. He had a lot of support but not complete support. He has always worked like a dog on his own car.
>
> And remember that is just to be at the same place
> as a homebuilt car like Jon Nichols' VW, or Derek
> Bottles VW.
>
Nichols car is work of art. That's all I know about it. It's not the typical car a club guy could build without much support. Derek's car costed him $25000 to build as per a post he made. I think that those cars are a bit more special than the average car.

> To many, if it means massive expenditures for
> seemingly no performance advantage, then why
> bother doing a particular car, EVEN IF SOMEBODY IS
> IS PATYING?

For one it generates marekting momentum. Have you seen Eric's new car. It's unreal.
>
It takes a certain kind of person willing to grow a relationship. Look at what Burmeister has accomplished. He is on the cusp of having a car that is going to push the top ten and maybe the top five at certain rallies. Once it is sorted his car is going to be a monster of which the likes have never been seen before. It's taken a while but he sees the value in it and once his machine is sorted it will be a benefit for the whole community.

> This can only make sense if the overarching reason
> is a few photos in the corner of some
> advertisement to lend a little "sporting" image to
> some otherwise ordinary car.
>

That's not all that uncommon, and it's not a few photos. Eric's car is in the Mazdas3 brochure at all the dealerships.

> And as the likeihood of somebody being able to
> land a deal like the Sprongls deal is fairly slim,
> there just aren't that many multi-times National
> Championsships to put on a resume. The withdrawn
> support after such a short time for the Priapus
> deal shows how a soley Promo deal can last, and
> that's hardly the way to build a long term
> foundation for the sport.
>

Our mindset needs to change. That's one thing that MaxAttack! hopes to help change. We are creating an environment that is different than we have ever had before. This championship is for you guys. We are going to promote the heck out of it and the smart competitors will come along for the ride. This has never been done before. We see the strength of our champioinship as the competitors. If you haven't figured it out yet it's more than money. You guys have a seriously determined group (us)in your corner. Our success will be your succes, your success will be our success.

What we all need to get used to is thinking of rally as more than a dead end sport. If you present yourself right and persist, and believe in yourself, you can acheive way more than you think you can.

There is the idea of rally is that of a hobby. It can be a lot more than that for some and still stay a hobby for some folks.

> We can only hope that no artifical bars will be
> rasied as so often were done and attempted to be
> done in the recent past to restrict older but
> still competitive cars so that there is only NEWER
> cars and by default gift them the Press attention,
> and with it the chances of sponsorship.
>

John, who are you dealing with here? You know us. Do you not understand the opportunites we are throwing at people's feet. There is no downside to this, abosolutely none. And my car is ugly and more than 20 years old.

We aren't done yet either. What is needed from a few teams out there, and we'll see who gets it, is for them to realize that we aren't just tossing money out the window to reward people. We want this money to bring in competitors. We want a well subscribed marketable series with lots of entries and lots of action. Just think of it, WE are going to market YOU, the racer. When teams realize that the environement we have created is a fertile one for getting sponsorship they will see the opportunites.

It takes a leap of faith and a little savy on the part of a rally team. The wheels just started turning. As the MaxAttack! machine gets moving those who can see what's happening will be rewarded.

> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 16, 2007 by john
> vanlandingham.

Jake,

i think the coolest thing ever would be if a company like mazda marketed a MaxAttack! edition of the mazdaspeed 3. like companies did in the peak of the SCCA Trans-Am series.

i like that you are keeping the MaxAttack! stuff in the National events. that kind of money could get really out of hand at the regional level and really hinder the entry level/hobby competitors. that being said do you have any plans to expand into the regional level at some point? maybe not with the large purse per event. maybe negotiate something with a tire manufacturer?

you spent a lot of time talking about what would need to be done about the RX-7. aside from the SRT-4 and the Mazdaspeed 3 what do you see as having potential for winning MaxAttack! money and attention?

i would think that the mini cooperS could be a good vehicle. however, for a different reason than chassis stuff. i think it could be good because BMW seems to be keen on unique promotions for the car and there is a huge aftermarket for the car that would probably be receptive to a new market to target for sponsorship. plus people (the average spectator/consumer) really seem to like the car.

maybe maxattack! could add a tarmac event for 08? that could increase the perceived value of the series to some potential sponsors.

what about the Nissan Versa? you can get it in a Sedan and 5 door in the USA now and maybe in a 3door soon. and there is rumors of an SE/SE-R version w/a bit more power as well as a possible NISMO model too. it is based of of the Nissan B platform that is shared with Renault. specifiaclly the Clio MkIII. the Clio Sport has a 197 HP motor. so that maybe a interesting option out there as well. and Nissan is being pretty creative with the marketing of this car as well. it is prominently featured in the NBC TV show Heroes. the Clio II was a pretty effective rally car. i wonder what carries over to the MkIII?

Dont forget about the Chevy Cobalt and the Ford Focus. sure would be fun to get that rivalry going in MaxAttack!.

i think people need to also remember that sponsors will sponors more than just the winners. they are concerned with exposure just as much as results (if not more).

this discussion reminds me of the spec series discussions we always used to have. one camp wants the spec series to be flashy new cars like the Pugeot cup series and one camp wants cars like the spec RX-7 class in road racing.

rallyspecV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah Blah, who cares what JV recomends, I
> haven't see one of these xcars or bricks out and
> the cars that are going to win are the ones being
> driven. subars, vws, nissans, hondas, it will be
> one of these because that is what is be driven,
> not the old has been cars that are all on blocks
> in somebody's garage collecting dust. pedagree or
> not if its in the stable and not on the stage it
> ain't gonna win

Other than mine or Colin's. Bet its faster than the SpecV

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

Johnie boy! Just returned your PM from like 5 months ago. Don't check in here too much lately, but Jake told me to pull me head outta me pooper and git on over here.

John, a couple things. First, I think you know I ain't no trustifariansilverspoonsuckinpriviledgedsonofabitch. Yup, we always had cars around...my dad had a racing Ferrari because he had the good sense to jump on it for $1800 (yes, that's hundred) before he got drafted and my dear grandma took pity on him an made the payments on it till he got of the army.

Still, I split my share of oak with a mall to keep warm and we had to flip coins to figure out which bill we were gonna pay as pop's machine shop business took hold.

Now, I'm not trying for freakin' sympathy here, just stating my past.

Here is the simple truth. Racing...any kind of racing is expensive. Shocker. But it ain't gonna get CHEAPER! Rallying is a sport that is considered...uhh...on the margins and as we all know, anything that is a bit out of the ordinary gets charged double by insurance companies "just in case."

We have suggested that MaxAttack! MIGHT be a way for enterprising rallyists to elevate their effort and equipment to something beyond where they are today. No one is twisting their arm. But if they choose to, perhaps they can offset some of these crazy costs that didn't exist back when we ate pizza in Rumford and talked about stabbing clutches in rally cars oh so many years ago.

I see your concern for "artificial bars being raised." If you can win the thing in a 69 Saab, I will be the first to buy you a stout. This is no engineered championship. If a guy WANTS to go it completely alone that is entirely his choice. If he can win...my hat's off to him. Moreover, he WON'T be buried in the press release in favor of Billy Prettycar's 2009 Superspeed23.5. You earn a win, you deserve the win and will get credit...more ammo for getting support if you choose to seek it.

However, if he chooses to bust his ass and get some good results on his own and then put together a proposal and find a contact at a company (not just OEM, but the GREATER aftermarket is currently not represented in rally, either) and make some calls and emails and follow up and work with a company and jump thru hoops and take the car to shows and print up t-shirts and posters on the company laserprinter, etc... we want to help him do it.

It is a question of sustainability. Many guys are already priced out. I started with a $6000 VW. I've gone from a commitment of $5000 worth of parts and a wrecked car, to something much greater than that. That relationship was grown. It didn't happen overnight. If we have an atmosphere where 2wd competition is GREAT and we can shout it from the rooftops, we can build value for this thing so's companies WANT to be involved. And others will have opportunities to build relationships IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.

Without support, I couldn't afford to run a clapped out VW today, John. I want to see others get this kind of help. And I wanna race against them. And I want to have good battles. And win or lose, I want to drink a beer at the end of the day knowing that we all gave our Max.


I appreciate the folks who feel rallying should remain a self-funded activity. I just see less and less people able to self fund it...certainly not regular Joes who split their own logs.

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Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2007 09:19PM by Lurch.