Anyone else have a 240 volvo?

Am I the only one besides JohnLane with one of these goofy square swedish things aka big (arguably ugly) MK1 escort or corolla?

I am well into stitch welding the shell of mine. Anyone know of a good place in the B-ham or seattle area to grab some liquid nitrogen? Way back in january or February when it was bloody cold on a clear day (like 20 something degrees in the barn where the 240 is), I was able to chip the tar sheet off most all of the floor of my car. I also found the car to be pleasantly devoid of rust or paint imperfections, which is nice I guess. Problem is, it is warming up, which I very much like for working on cars. Problem also is, the tar sheet doesn't just jump right off the metal and actually sticks pretty good in temps I'm comfortable at. I have most of it off (enough to weld) but still need to get the remaining crap off of the seat rail area, which has never gotten wet or warm in my car, so it doesn't want to come off. I prefer cold to hot since it isn't messy, gooey, smelly and most of it goes away for you to just take some paint thinner to the residue and be shut of it.

So far on the to-do list for next week:
Finish welding and gusseting much of the front section and addressing the more flexy flier portions of the nose piece. (the hood hinge area is sort of a mess of stressed spot welds in a 240).

Fab up brake caliper adapters for my mazdog turbo-2 calipers for the front and root through my pile of 747 k-car (volvo 740/940) rotors. Run the brake lines. Order a front/rear master cylinder and re-arrange the split from dual diagonal (paranoid norwegian) to front/rear and bracket the hydrailic hand brake lever to the chassis.

Take a pile of volvo bellhousings to JVL to make it able to use a gearbox stronger than a twig with ratios more like a car and less like a garbage truck.

That is about it for a while. I'll install my welded diff carrier and 4.11 ring and pinion when I get around to it. I've been tempted to install the dana LSD thing in it....it is a clutch type, but I've seen them dead behind 100hp hippified 240 wagons...so I'm kinda not sure about all of that.

Over the next year then I'll probably just drive it more and then decide the fate of this shell to be used for rally or just used as a nice streetable car and take another similar (but less mint paint) shell and transport the goodies into it and cage it and so on.

I'd love to hear what other major areas of 240s that people are working on for rally use.

I see faster steering being a good future investment, though if you had a volvo 142 (like me) before your 240 days, 240 steering feels pretty OK (my late 240 was 3.3 turns lock-lock, no idea what is in my 242...zf power rack I think). If you had an x-ratty, snaab or nazi machine, maybe not so much.

The engine is nothing special. A 160Km good runner B23E with the turbo fuel dizzy already on it and no lambda sond emissions anything. K-jet and all. Forged internals and all (though heavy). 10.5:1 (probably soon to be 11:1 compression) 140hp stock...probably will stay about that with better gearing, lighter flywheel and work to the driver.

Sorry for the lengthy introduction. I searched around here and didn't find a lot of 240 specific rally prep info, not that it matters. I've found a wealth of information for someone just getting interested in it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2007 05:58AM by fridgewagon.

fridgewagon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Welcome, and no fuckin apologies around here unless you brought up the subject of "decorum" while you were like drunk, or on shrooms .
You could then apologize for trying to get all snooty on us when you were straight.


> Sorry for the lengthy introduction. I searched
> around here and didn't find a lot of 240 specific
> rally prep info, not that it matters. I've found
> a wealth of information for someone just getting
> interested in it.

Damn, you're right!
Well Kevins was done piecemeal and with the Degree 2 quarters away he's been letting slide the serious revision pof the cage and the longer axle mounyed coilover stuff that I got cooked up.

Here's what we should do:
First you finish off your little profile thing with a full name,
THEN you start a thread and we can answer stuff from old posts, and or new stuff as it gets done.

Jake and I were just on the phone and he was saying that some of the same questions from 4 years ago were coming round again as a new draft of recruits has come along, and search is too sketchy.
So new threads for new projects.
>
>
>
> Edited 3 times. Last edit at Apr 21, 2007 by
> fridgewagon.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Why yes, yes I do!
I am only kind of letting the rear axle slide. I have removed all the old brackets and crap from the 4Runner axle. I gotta call Nix on 99 (used Toyota parts) and see how much the axle is going to cost from them.
The Megasquirt is still coming along.
John's making some (classified) for the front to replace the 40mm struts that he sold to some guy in LA. (Yes, John sells parts off my car.)
I'm kinda thinking that I should rework the rear part of the cage while I'm doing the rear axle, but I might be biting off a little too much for one summer (especially considering that I'll probably be doing an engineering internship this summer).

---

Monika Hawkinson
Seattle, WA

Fist off, congratulations Kev! I hope your internship is awesome. I'll be at school some of the summer, so short of money sort of, but working and working on the car some too.

I am slowly building up a profile and will organize my digital pictars and ask about one thing at a time as I do it. Sounds like a great plan. At the end of spring break/beginning of the term I had a couple days where I just worked really hard on it and got the sound deadening out, sandblasted and solvent washed the major seams super clean, and labeled a bunch of wiring and ditched the stupid power windows, mirrors and locks. The dash wiring was very intimidating, but it gets very simple with no A/C, power windows, locks, O2 sensor, overdrive etc. The non-lambda k-jet looks quite straight forward. Steering lock and ignition switch are gone...so no I probably have the easiest car to steal in the world.

Heh, decorum...that word always makes me laugh. Where is the nancy-boy emoticon?
I'll be fleshing out my profile soonish. Take care.

I have a couple of brake questions if you don't mind answering them or helping me think about them:

Have a brake pad you guys like for the mazdog calipers for damp/dry use? I don't care in the slightest about dust.

What sort of aluminum alloy did you select for the adapter and why? My basic reasoning tells me 6061-T6 would work pretty well and should be fine in a rectangular bar shape.

In a picture I can no longer find on Kevvie's website, it shows a 240 and 740 rotor side by side in profile. It looks as though the 240 rotor has a greater back spacing (more inward) In some ways, I almost wonder if running a 240 rotor wouldn't be a bad idea if that is true. That might let me tuck the brakes in a larger variety of 15" wheels including some beateriffic virgos. Thankfully, I finally found some properly beateriffic 15" 740 steelies for my 185/65 hakkapllittas that are pretty brake friendly. Any ideas here are cool. I like using the 740 rotors since they are a nice size and dirt cheap and I got 'em. But I'd consider using the 240 rotors for wheel options or spending actual money on some wilwood adapter hats with the spacing/size I like. Factory serviceable stuff is nice though.
Sorry for the rambling about brakes. Just at the forefront of my mind staring at my pile of RX-7 and 747 junk and 240 struts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2007 02:45PM by fridgewagon.

I too am in the process of building a 240 stage car. A slow process but I am showing progress. Being that most of my work is being done on the street hopefully more of my projects will get crossed off the list with the fading of the rain.

Take in mind that I am very new to this crazy world of building rally cars though I have been with Volvos for the past ten years. My car is an 81 242 dl M46 B21f.

This car will see life this year in rallycross. Jon, the board, and I have discussed how this is garbage and that I am wasting my time and money but I thumb my nose to this. Some of my mods may reflect that.

Recently, since my last post I have:
Installed dash and instrument cluster w/ tach
23mm turbo swaybar, poly front swaybar and endlink bushings, new endlinks
25mm ipd rear bar.
Finished power steering delete
New plugs, k&n filter, oil filter, synthetic oil
ipd adj cam gear to pair w/ vx cam
ipd aluminum skid plate
continued w/ removal of unneeded wiring, interior

What gear box are you planning on going with Fridgewagon? Are you happy w/ your weld rear diff. I am planning on going with a 3.91 w/ Truetrac because of the stupid tight rallyx courses. Then maybe move to a 3.73 for stage,

Glad to see someone else keeping these things alive. There were hardly any in the lot at OTR and certainly none on the entrylist.

I doubt that anything that I am doing here is inspiring to you but know that someone else out there is as crazy as you for trying this w/ a brick.

-Pat

---

Zap zap my ass...

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too am in the process of building a 240 stage
> car. A slow process but I am showing progress.
> Being that most of my work is being done on the
> street hopefully more of my projects will get
> crossed off the list with the fading of the rain.
>
> Take in mind that I am very new to this crazy
> world of building rally cars though I have been
> with Volvos for the past ten years. My car is an
> 81 242 dl M46 B21f.
>
> This car will see life this year in rallycross.
> Jon, the board, and I have discussed how this is
> garbage and that I am wasting my time and money
> but I thumb my nose to this.

Rallycross is essentially masturbation. Sure it's fun but I don't want to spend the whole fuckin day watching my friends do it.

And simirlarly, wanking teaches you nothing about real fucking.
And Rally-x as done in the PNW, teaches you nothing about stage rally.

But if it keeps you jazzed OK, if it distracts you and delays you, or as it does for most, if its all you want to do, well whatever.



Some of my mods may
> reflect that.
>
> Recently, since my last post I have:
> Installed dash and instrument cluster w/ tach ...........OK
> 23mm turbo swaybar, poly front swaybar and endlink
> bushings, new endlinks.....................................OK
> 25mm ipd rear bar........................................Maybe, maybe not OK
> Finished power steering delete.......Silly, only newbies think this is smart


> New plugs, k&n filter, oil filter, synthetic
> oil.......................................how many miles on the motor?
> ipd adj cam gear to pair w/ vx cam...............OK for a weeenie street cam
> ipd aluminum skid plate.................................Might do for now.
> continued w/ removal of unneeded wiring, interior........strip her out
>
> What gear box are you planning on going with
> Fridgewagon? Are you happy w/ your weld rear
> diff. I am planning on going with a 3.91 w/
> Truetrac because of the stupid tight rallyx
> courses. Then maybe move to a 3.73 for stage,

This shows whoever you have been talking to has not reached you, or they don't understand or you don't understand.
Very busy now but here's what normal people use when in t cars roughly this size with motors roughly similar making normal power for rally

2.0 to 2.3 normal aspirated w/ 62-64 cm tall tires 5.1: ratio final drive
2.0 to 2.3 turbo w 64-65cm tall tires 4.3 to 4.6 final drive.

The typical car is geared "shorter" or "lower" to trade off top speed for acceleration particularly out of corners and up hills.

My little Saab has 5.45:1 final drive now that I have a "big" motor. Used to have a 5.83:1 ring and pinion
>
> Glad to see someone else keeping these things
> alive. There were hardly any in the lot at OTR
> and certainly none on the entrylist.
>
> I doubt that anything that I am doing here is
> inspiring to you but know that someone else out
> there is as crazy as you for trying this w/ a
> brick.

Well re-read, and re-think, and don't listen top anybody who doesn't actually rally and keep the faith, and MAKE A PLAN and a BUDGET.

Don't be shy.
>
> -Pat
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

wow i guess i am off track

Ok john point me straight
from top to bottom

-25mm why maybe not? Too much oversteer?
-PS delete. Comp in M2 is rabbits, omnis. Saving as much weight, esp from the nose that I can. This was simply done and can go back in when I start doing long transits and such.
-~230,000 on the motor. worried i will start to see leaks w/ the new oil? Thinking that higher demands on the engine would benefit from the synthetic.
-VX cam was in the car @ purchase and I already had the cam gear from another project. When building the B23 what cam would you go with?
-Skid plate also from another car. 1/8 stamped aluminium should do fine for rallyx. I start ditch hooking we will look into something different.
-Only thing left is the headliner and the sound deadening crap. Looking like a great home for a cage.

Ok so now the final drive. As you can see I know very little about this. What I had gathered was from Grimshaw's Performance Handbook. From that book.."The 3.73:1 or 3.91:1 final drive ratios yield better overall gearing for sport, rally, or autocross use. The taller final drive ratios improve acceleration..." The tallest he talks about from volvo for the M46 is a 4.10:1. So am I completly lost or are you talking of aftermarket or maybe Jeep differentials? Glad I haven't got this crossed of my list yet. I only want to do it once, until in breaks that is.

I know how you feel about rallyx and see why you feel that way, but this thread and how far off track I am, shows why I want to take my time and learn not only driving but building/fixing this car as well. I want to know what is going on with my car. Trying to avoid the quick entrance and quicker exit that I see happen to so many new rally drivers and cars.

Thanks for the help, show me the light

---

Zap zap my ass...

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wow i guess i am off track

That's OK, that's one reason we started this Forum, a place we can talk just like we're hanging out having some ciggies and drinking beer for you, tea for me.
>
> Ok john point me straight
> from top to bottom
>
> -25mm why maybe not? Too much oversteer?

Can there be tooo much over steer? I wasn't aware!!

> -PS delete. Comp in M2 is rabbits, omnis. Saving
> as much weight, esp from the nose that I can.

Eat more fiber, have a good dump. Don't worry about weight.

> This was simply done and can go back in when I
> start doing long transits and such.
> -~230,000 on the motor. worried i will start to
> see leaks w/ the new oil? Thinking that higher
> demands on the engine would benefit from the
> synthetic.

Look, on a million miler all you need is good fresh COOL oil. Get the cooler setup from a turbo and shove it on. $6.50 for the cooler, a bit more for the hoses and sandwich plate.
Current dino oil is 10 time better than when your car was born, it dowesn't make the heat or load that Synth is good for, SAVE MONEY.

> -VX cam was in the car @ purchase and I already
> had the cam gear from another project. When
> building the B23 what cam would you go with?

Some whacky thing with say 308-312 duration, 11.5 to 11.8mm lift and interded to be an actual rally cam---fast opening and torquey but revability to 7500.
I have the masters for a very good can for SOHC bucket type motors, we can talk when its time.
The VX will do in your relatively low comp motor.
Your real motor should be in the mid 11.sumpin for comp.



> -Skid plate also from another car. 1/8 stamped
> aluminium should do fine for rallyx. I start
> ditch hooking we will look into something
> different.

Right, like 1/4" and god strong mounts. We gotta build Kevvi something stout and easy to service so we can maybe make a couple.

> -Only thing left is the headliner and the sound
> deadening crap. Looking like a great home for a
> cage.

Let me know when its time.
>
> Ok so now the final drive. As you can see I know
> very little about this. What I had gathered was
> from Grimshaw's Performance Handbook. From that
> book.."The 3.73:1 or 3.91:1 final drive ratios
> yield better overall gearing for sport, rally, or
> autocross use. The taller final drive ratios
> improve acceleration..." The tallest he talks
> about from volvo for the M46 is a 4.10:1.

Terminology note: whats first or "low" gear? 3.9 in your M-farty-fart.
What's "top gear" or "high"? 1:1
When it comes to final drives numbers like street cars, 3.3 or 3.7 or even 3,9 are "higher" or "longer" than 4.3 or 4.54 or the normal for NA 5.1 which are low or short.

If the "Grimshaw's" thing is what I think it is it is best to set it aside as it is essentially a lot of dogmatic assertions and it's clear the guy has never seen, let alone sat in, or built a rally car.



So am I
> completly lost or are you talking of aftermarket
> or maybe Jeep differentials? Glad I haven't got
> this crossed of my list yet. I only want to do it
> once, until in breaks that is.

Well 5.1 isn't aavialble in North America but that's so short that you would HAVE to have a gearbox with TALLER first and second than the M-farty-fart mor aNY STOCK vOLVO BOX.
Hence all the talk of BorgWarner T5, the poor man, or everyman's Close-er box
>
> I know how you feel about rallyx and see why you
> feel that way, but this thread and how far off
> track I am, shows why I want to take my time and
> learn not only driving but building/fixing this
> car as well.

Well for you it is nearby and cheap so what the fuck, eh?


I want to know what is going on with
> my car.

Always a good plan.


Trying to avoid the quick entrance and
> quicker exit that I see happen to so many new
> rally drivers and cars.

That is behind much of what I write, and why a push easy to mod, fun rwd cars, the retention rate seems much higher when guys can do more stuff and progressively build their cars as they go and do it afford ably.


>
> Thanks for the help, show me the light

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

well, I have since decided to break up my projects, but I'll reply to this thread to give a general idea of what I'm thinking.

Gearbox will be a chev T5 thing, either of the S10 flavor with the camaro gearset and bearing retainer or straight up camaro box, either way effectively making it a T5 "world class" or whatever and more importantly giving the 2.95-.73 ratio spread instead of the really gross M46 ratio spread.

I have a 4.10 ring and pinion. I'll probably use that 'cause I've got it, know how to install it and paid essentially nothing for it, and it should allow me to drive the car on the highway reasonably well. I could order a 4.3 or 4.56 of volvo 1031 flavor, but really I want to get it working "well enough" without spending lots of money on the diff before I have some experience with what works well and what doesn't. 4.10 is probably a little tall for my B23E pushing my sled about, but to answer your question, I gotta drive it. On paper, and from what I've driven it gives a 1st gear ratio just under ~ 12:1 with good speed increments, but again, that doesn't mean much until I see how nicely I can drive it.

As for the cam, I'm just using the stock volvo K for now, cause, guess what, it is basically free too! I think it has ~270 duration and 11.95 lift. The motor could use a bit more compression, but it is healthy and frankly I don't really have any plans other than making sure it is up to snuff, not leaking and skimming and cleaning up the head a bit. Stock k-jets is all just going to be left be. Due to all the chassis and brake work going on and me wanting to get the car going and drive it, I decided to skimp and just get a low mile healthy B23E (140hp stock, 150ftlbs at lowish revs) as a complete package.

Yesterday I practiced welding over my head with sheet metal. To anyone considering a 240 volvo (or probably any car, but I'm new at this), get the chassis seams and car super super clean before you weld. Degrease it, ditch all the monkey tape, label absolutely all of the important wiring. Sandblast the seams and solvent wash them. I also give them a light acid wash to really get everything clean. Even so, when supporting the car on its jack points and welding underneath, without acid dipping the car it really isn't possible to keep some of the crap in the seams from goobering out as it melts.
Pay special attantion to the hood hinge area on a 240. It is stressed and flexy stock and the panels aren't connected very well. Connecting all of that is pretty important. Even on my straight minimally stressed shell some of the tack welds in that area were stressed/breaking apart. 240s as stock are really pretty flexible fliers on the front end.

For the sound deadening, liquid nitrogen would work really well, but it is hard to get. I find dry ice when it is warmer out seems to work pretty good. Prax air in town has pallets of it. My sound deadening came off a lot easier when it was cold out. Never the less, I'll just grab a small crate of dry ice and finish it up. I prefer to get it cold since there are no fumes, chemicals, or gluey stuff left from heating it. It just chips off and you can scrub off the remaining glue fairly easily. Again, heat works, as does more chemical approaches, but I prefer cold for no mess or chemicals required.

Currently, I have a (de-powered) ZF rack in the car. It will have no power steering initially, which is probably fine for rally-x or auto-x since you won't have time to get tired. It will have power assist soonish...whatever I get around to it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2007 09:20PM by fridgewagon.

Sorry to hear the projects are on the back burner right now fridgewagon.

So what do the two of you have on the T5 over the Getrag 265? I was planning on the BMW variety but I must admit that that is only because of my bias against US junk. Is the gearing more acceptable for rally?

I am glad to have someone pointing out the weak points on the chassis for seam welding. I think a mig may be my earlier bday present.

John, thanks for taking the time to set me straight.
So if it isn't oversteer then why are you up in the air about the 25mm rear bar?

If you think a change in diet is more important than a ps delete than what are your thouhgts on a battery relocation? Waste of time?

As to the oilcooler. anything special needed to install the turbo oil cooler?

Once I have a spare head preped to rally spec then we will talk about cams. Good to know you have something in mind.

When you make the under armor for Kevs car do make me some. I'm good for it.

Right now if funds are available I want to get the cage done this winter. I'll let you know when I am ready.

So before the t5/Getrag what do you recommend for a rear. Perferably something that puts power to both wheels.

I know this is alot of questions at once and I thank you in advance for your efforts. You have already saved me many headaches and dollars.

-Pat D

---

Zap zap my ass...

I just tripped over a T5 while walking to my computer to write this message.

And I hear they can come in goodenough ratios and will handle any amount of power either of our motors will be making for quite some time.

So why not the T5?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Why the T5? 'Cause it fits like a glove in a 240, is pretty cheap, has good ratios, and is literally the most common RWD passenger car gearbox in the world I'm pretty sure.
I have a getrag 945T (Fridgewagon). It shifts nice and is strong, but the ratios are lousy and it works well with a 3.31 axle and is my freeway flier. The getrag also fits easily in the 7/900 and I got two for free, one fairly freshly rebuilt.

I know JVL will make fun of me saying this, but I do have yet to shift a T5 that I like. Doesn't matter for my 240 abuse machine and I don't care. Steel instead of aluminum shift forks would be nice though, but the alloy ones are usually fine if you don't jam it further once it is in gear.

So, yeah, why not a T5? I think the 2.95 T5s with some updated parts are rated at 330ft-lbs and that is often quoted at 100K of complete abuse, so it should be plenty strong enough for whatever I do with it.

Not everything is on the back burner, just have to get chassis work and brake work more or less done before doing other things.

PS is convenient, it weighs about 17lbs in the volvo. The battery can move with relatively little fuss. The PS can't.

Grab the pipe in the B21FT/B23FT block for the thermostat collar from the volvo turbo. The oil cooler lives where the N/A airbox does. They can't occupy the same space...change the lines, or airbox or whatever.

fridgewagon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why the T5? 'Cause it fits like a glove in a 240,
> is pretty cheap, has good ratios, and is literally
> the most common RWD passenger car gearbox in the
> world I'm pretty sure.

T5 cheap? Well, you *can* get new ones for about $1000-1100, which is doing pretty good.

But you need to watch out for used since the majority of T5s out there are 4.0 First. The only 2.95 First units out there (installed OEM and thus you can find them in junkyards) are the Ford V8 NWC and the Chevy V8 WC.

Really the difference between WC and NWC isn't that great... the WC's gears are on bearings instead of bushings like most trannies, and instead of brass synchros like most tranneis the WC units have fancy fiber lined rings. I wouldn't turn down a NWC just because it's NWC.

> I know JVL will make fun of me saying this, but I
> do have yet to shift a T5 that I like.

They do suck rocks, especially if you've played with nice T10 or Muncie fourspeeds (2.1 First on the good ones) with a decent shifter, just slide into any gear like butter. They're tons better than the truck transmissions cars come with now, though. First time I drove a T56 equipped Mustang I thought I'd need two hands to shift.

> Steel instead of aluminum shift forks would be
> nice though, but the alloy ones are usually fine
> if you don't jam it further once it is in gear.

Shifter stops. Install them, adjust them, love them.

> So, yeah, why not a T5? I think the 2.95 T5s with
> some updated parts are rated at 330ft-lbs and that
> is often quoted at 100K of complete abuse, so it
> should be plenty strong enough for whatever I do
> with it.

Weeeelllll.... it depends on the abuse. I know someone who has a torque pig supercharged 4-cam with over 600ft-lb and 700hp, after putting together all of the power parts he had none left over for a transmission so he gets by with the T45, which is an updated T5 (285ft-lb capacity) and they last surprisingly long with frequent fluid changes. On the other hand, some people with near stock engines go through T5s at an alarming rate.

The torque rating is the rating in 1st gear, which is why the 4.0:1 boxes have a much lower torque rating. Keep it in the higher gears and be gentle with it and it might last a good long time at much higher torque levels...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fridgewagon Wrote:

> T5 cheap? Well, you *can* get new ones for about
> $1000-1100, which is doing pretty good.
>
> But you need to watch out for used since the
> majority of T5s out there are 4.0 First. The only
> 2.95 First units out there (installed OEM and thus
> you can find them in junkyards) are the Ford V8
> NWC and the Chevy V8 WC.

Agreed. I neglected to mention that as I thought it was pretty common knowledge. Unless you have a 2.95 V8 gearset, don't touch anything behind a 4 or 6 with a 10 foot pole, as they are even grosser than anything in the volvo and silly common. Finding an IROC V8 parts car usually isn't terribly difficult though. Or an S10 box to buy a leyshaft and input shaft for to effectively make it a 2.95 T5. Whatever you do, just choose wisely and it can be inexpensive and fairly straight forward. Choose poorly and you could be chasing your tail for sure. Thankfully I have built up a lot of charts of what to get where and there is lots of good info out there about what to get and what to avoid. Sifting through it all can be difficult.

>
> Really the difference between WC and NWC isn't
> that great... the WC's gears are on bearings
> instead of bushings like most trannies, and
> instead of brass synchros like most tranneis the
> WC units have fancy fiber lined rings. I wouldn't
> turn down a NWC just because it's NWC.

Agreed. That is why I said gearing is what you want to look for mostly. The WC/NWC thing is mostly trivia and a few small parts. You hear it mentioned everywhere, so I thought I'd mention it and then just sweep it under the carpet. It doesn't take a huge pile of parts to make an NWC a WC as I'm sure you know if you just gotta have a WC or whatever. Gearing, condition and to some extent shift quality are what I look for.


> They do suck rocks, especially if you've played
> with nice T10 or Muncie fourspeeds (2.1 First on
> the good ones) with a decent shifter, just slide
> into any gear like butter. They're tons better
> than the truck transmissions cars come with now,
> though. First time I drove a T56 equipped Mustang
> I thought I'd need two hands to shift.

Well, I think most of the guys that like them are used to shifting stuff like a TKO-600 or T56 or whatever else from a flogged muscle car. T5 feels pretty light and good in that case. In a car to be flogged, mechanical and grouchy is ok with me mostly. The TKO makes the T5 feel pretty light!


> Weeeelllll.... it depends on the abuse. I know
> someone who has a torque pig supercharged 4-cam
> with over 600ft-lb and 700hp, after putting
> together all of the power parts he had none left
> over for a transmission so he gets by with the
> T45, which is an updated T5 (285ft-lb capacity)
> and they last surprisingly long with frequent
> fluid changes. On the other hand, some people
> with near stock engines go through T5s at an
> alarming rate.
>
> The torque rating is the rating in 1st gear, which
> is why the 4.0:1 boxes have a much lower torque
> rating. Keep it in the higher gears and be gentle
> with it and it might last a good long time at much
> higher torque levels...

True. Given their arrangement, one might break 3rd. Behind my lightish flywheel B23E N/A, I doubt I will kill it. Even if I turbocharge it (which will be a while), I'm not really worried.
I can get a T5 out of a parts car for $70-300 complete and in working order with the 2.95 gearset or so it would seem. That is fairly dirt cheap for something that is a fairly complete serviceable solution for me. A lot cheaper than say buying the volvo GRP-A gearset for the getrag (2.3:1 1st-1:1 5th dogleg 5-speed).

Don't forget the relative inexpensiveness of the G-Force straight cut gears, or gearboxman ones of the same. Dog or synchro engagement.

Or the ability to keep an okay spare or two in the parts bin.

---

Grant Hughes