NRS stock classes/ RA Production classes

So, i first started a question like this on SS. JV recommended I bring it over here, where I've been relatively silent for a few years since joining.

I'm currently planning out a build for a stage rally car. The platform, a 1G DSM (awd/turbo) is about 99% decided based on knowledge of the car and availability of spare parts, amongst my prospective team. The question I asked over there was about the Stock Medium class in NRS (I will be starting in just NRS, obviously). I had read, possibly on this forum, that the class is a ghost town, and pretty much looked down upon.

So, since then i looked at 2013 NRS results for the Atlantic events I'd be going to. I only saw 1 car, in 1 event labeled a stock car. If that's accurate, holy shit... But, that means Open AWD class is the only other option with this car. I'm already going to be slow as shit learning to drive, my co-driver learning to navigate, team learning how a stage rally works in general, etc. A large portion of my available funds will be spent prepping the car just to be legal to enter a NRS event (mainly safety), and then also suspension, and general prep to hope the car lasts through events.

So, all that blabbering, and I'm nto sure if I've even asked a question yet. Is it retarded to even consider keeping ym car within Stock medium rules from the get go, or should i just forget about that, and plan on Open AWD, knowing full well, my car is only going to be a few notches above a stock car? Maybe i should email Anders and ask what the numbers were like in Stock Medium the last few years.

Well from my PGT-> slopen build.

I had originally thought PGT on a 02 WRX would make sense and keep me in budget. Less things I could do to the car, less distractions.

Then you start looking at the rules.. .Factory radiator (ouch). more interior bits, less freedom to cut things out of the way to make the cage work better.

So..my new thoughts.

1.) Build the car and don't f with the engine until it feels slow.
2.) Don't worry about the rest of the open $$ cars. They'll probably break/roll anyway.

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

yeah. the damn radiator and intercooler rules were my two biggest concerns with the stock class. Radiator is obvious, but have you ever seen a DSM intercooler? tiny, uneless, and side mounted in a location that it can be caked over with mud.

Spending money was my worry with Open. everything is going to sound like a good idea. but i believe i can keep myself under control and concentrate on just safety and prep.

Yeah.. the rad bugs me the most.. Especially after spending just shy of $500 one saturday on a new radiator from a Subaru dealership at a rallycross.

2hrs from home and the damn thing started peeing, only one in stock was a subaru dealer. It worked, but I'd rather not have to keep doing that.

The other motivation I had for PGT was that they lumped the PGT 32mm cars and Open Light cars into the same CRS GT class, which was fairly well populated with open light cars (well productiony open lights).

That class is no more and I moved far enough away for it not to matter anyway.

FWIW I'll still be running a 32mm restrictor at the first few events.

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

easist answer is whatever NASA calls Group 2 and Group 5.
Then you can mix and match and barrow freely from whatever you want, like bigger front discs than those First Gen things have or importantly alternate final drive from some lower powered model..

That is if we can't sucessfully talk you into a easier car to mod and live with

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
easist answer is whatever NASA calls Group 2 and Group 5.
Then you can mix and match and barrow freely from whatever you want, like bigger front discs than those First Gen things have or importantly alternate final drive from some lower powered model..

That is if we can't sucessfully talk you into a easier car to mod and live with

going to be hard to talk me out of that one. really doesn't have to be a 1G DSM, but the 4G63 platform is the specialty of the shop taking this project on. The other thing they work on, but are not big fans of, are Subarus. I almost feel liek you'd rather see a DSM out there than another one of those things. Found a local 1G that has 2G brakes on it already, that's hihg on my prospective list.

I do wonder about the availability of spare AWD bits for those things.. I just don't remember there being that many of the AWD variants around.

the 1st Gen also seems kinda small inside to me, but Adam on here will probably chime in about that as he did run one for a bit.

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/104290326760862908082/albums/5647060804026962241

There's some pics of the one I'm talking about. Keep in mind you'll need a good deal more cage that those pictures show.

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

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Paddy1337

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john vanlandingham
easist answer is whatever NASA calls Group 2 and Group 5.
Then you can mix and match and barrow freely from whatever you want, like bigger front discs than those First Gen things have or importantly alternate final drive from some lower powered model..

That is if we can't sucessfully talk you into a easier car to mod and live with

going to be hard to talk me out of that one. really doesn't have to be a 1G DSM, but the 4G63 platform is the specialty of the shop taking this project on. The other thing they work on, but are not big fans of, are Subarus. I almost feel liek you'd rather see a DSM out there than another one of those things. Found a local 1G that has 2G brakes on it already, that's hihg on my prospective list.

Well, if it has to be 4G63, OK. Get a gawddam Gaylant shell (or 2).
The Misterbitchi Gaylant is an excellent platform....no drawbacks, good size, good outward visibility, better room inside..
I'd call the car, the Gaylant sharing the top of the EXCELLENT car for human beings list...and the Eclipsed way down the list only above such junk like Festiva, GTX, and other miniature micro car crap...

Now if you do the Gaylant figure out what set of ratios is better than those very early cars cause their spread is wide and there's some serious gaps.

And if these guys you mention are 4G63 guys your big task will be to restrain their ideas--unless of course they're done a lot of 32mm restrictor 4G63s before...and restraint is hard in those things ( I have built 3 of them for friends)...
No a very smrat Turkish lawyer and general madman I know told me there is an 1800 version of that engine fambly that has port sizes that are more realistic for a 32 or 34mm restrictor motor. They are MUCH MUCH smaller and that means you port velocity is much higher, and that's a good thing when you need peak torque under 3000 rpm, and max power at mid 3s...

And look hard at what later parts you can use....like the exhaust manifold from EVOs (so you can swap blown turbos quickly and not DNF for a simple popped turbo) and the later EVO turbos which are "right size" for a..
restrictor motor...

Remember, with a 32mm restrictor it will be pointless to waste time and effort trying to make it rev past 5000rpm

Maybe with a weeeeeeeee bit of thought--like plasma cutting brackets----
you could turn the engine/box in the Gaylant like Misterbitchi did after EvoIV so you could use the later boxes which are excellent..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

galants sound fun to me, but in my limited exposure to them, it's like an AE86 to the Toyota guys. Held on some pedestal, overvalued in asking prices, and such. But, one of the guys at the shop owns a VR4, and may actually know what all can be swapped around. But seeing the horror stories of people trying to convert regular Galants into AWD, i feel like there isn't a whole lot similar.

I will broaden my search to include VR4's though. maybe i'll get lucky and find a decent one. I wouldn't probably put that 2nd on my list of desired cars to build, behind an Evo. And a second Evo, especially built for Rally, isn't happening on my current pay grade.

And on the spare parts front... I don't get it, becuase the cars are 20 years old, but there is a plethora available, and compared to prices i'm used to with Evos, they all sound like super good deals to me. And, the VR4 owner has a graveyard of DSMs, and a garage of spare parts. I really don't know why he does, but he does. They are definitely cramped inside.

It's a little complicated, but follow me:

The _championship_ is just two classes, AWD and 2WD. You want to win the championship (the Atlantic Rally Cup) you better beat a lot of people in all kinds of cars. Winning that means something.

If you scroll down further, you'll see the same people re-scored in their NRS classes, which includes basically splits AWD and 2WD into turbo and non turbo. Competing against similar equipment is fun too, and so we provide those results for each event. Winning that means something, it just means something different.

There are two reasons, in my opinion, that people in racing enter the various production classes:
1) it means limited modifications needed, which seems like it will be easier to build, and fairer when you get gonig
2) you can get contingency money from manufacturers who want you to advertise for them by running their car

So.... #2, NRS doesn't have any contingency money for production class, so that's out. For #1, turns out there's a fair amount of fabrication needed ANYWAY for a rally car, and the "what you can't do" turns into a pain in the butt. Then you get there and realize driver skill counts for way more than this trivia about B pillar trim or other nonsense, so why bother making everything more difficult for yourself.

So when #1 is more perception than reality (and after a while everyone gets it), and #2 doesn't exist, there's no REASON to put yourself though the hassle of production classes.

I'd bet if you went and talked to a bunch of people who run in production classes over in RA, and asked them about modifications that they WANTED to make to the car, but couldn't, they would all have some. Then ask yourself... "With all the trouble it takes to do this sport, why did I not build the car I REALLY WANTED?"

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

thanks for the response Anders

As someone who owned a 1st gen GSX, two GVR4s, and an Evo (amongst others), here are my thoughts.

Eclipse should be passed on unless your 5'8 or shorter...or maybe an inch or so taller, but have a very short torso. The low roofline sucks ass...no way around it. My buddy built my 1st gen into a rally car back in 2002 or so. He cut the trans tunnel and notched it to get the seats sitting closer to the tunnel, and once the cage was in and had the required padding, my head sat off at a 20 degree angle...constantly touching/bouncing off that padding.

GVR4 would be the best bet if you're stuck with running DSM parts. Agreed that running they're damn pricey, but since you've got a shop chomping at the bit, find one with a blown motor from some kid who blew it up and doesn't have the money to get it fixed.

If you're not sold on running AWD and could stomach running FWD, that could be an easy way to feel more competitive right off the bat. Running in Group5, all it would take is a ziptie on the wastegate line to hit ~250hp and that's right about the cheaper side of the generally accepted limit of hp/traction.

I love me some 4g63...but restrictors suck ass. Built up my Evo with a good restrictor setup, 10:1 pistons, 2.3L stroker and a TR30R turbo. Made ~315hp/440tq but the powerband was really narrow and the party was over by 5000rpm. I think an unrestricted stock motor and FWD would likely be more fun.

Dave

now that is some good specific insight. Raced two of the cars I'm considering, and also raced what i drive in other forms of racing.

I am actually a short-ass when I'm sitting, I'm all legs but 5' 11" ish.

I'll keep digging for a GVR4 in my searches. I'm dealing with a small time-crunch though, because I deploy in December, and the guys want to get working on a car yesterday.

Glad to hear my assumptions on the motor were somewhat on point. Figured i do a high comp stroker (if not in production), and find a small turbo. I really don't know small turbos much yet, but the 6.5 TME sounded like it had potential.

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Paddy1337
now that is some good specific insight. Raced two of the cars I'm considering, and also raced what i drive in other forms of racing.

I am actually a short-ass when I'm sitting, I'm all legs but 5' 11" ish.

I'll keep digging for a GVR4 in my searches. I'm dealing with a small time-crunch though, because I deploy in December, and the guys want to get working on a car yesterday.

Glad to hear my assumptions on the motor were somewhat on point. Figured i do a high comp stroker (if not in production), and find a small turbo. I really don't know small turbos much yet, but the 6.5 TME sounded like it had potential.

Forget the stroker crank...money wasted, you save the money and find on of those 1800 heads with the smaller ports..
Ask your hero guys, if they don't know then i dunno what to say, they don't know rally applications..you need port velocity.
Dave was making a monster motor and he has the budget... You don't so there no advantage of monster shit.. Gears are more important the basic cc.

You want more volume motor---cram more volume of boost in, its the same thing..save money!
Find the later Evo turbo things I mentioned, those turbos were chosen to work good even in Group N with the stoopid 32mm restrictor. so they work...

DON'T GO CRAZY in the motor, you're a noob and even if you were, the WAY power is delivered is more important. And how it is delivered also depends on the gearbox and final drive..

Far too many of the Open and Esss Pee guys spend really stupid money and then they open the throttle so lame-ly that a young guy in a normal aspirated 1600ss 160hp car--with the right box/diff/final drive...has repeatedly KICKED AND STOMPED EVERY ONE.
Right parts, right thousghts, right action: he stomped on the gas and left it.

THEY, all of them---didn't.
You don't need way wicked stuff, just GOOD..

Where you deploying and how long? You Army? Marines? Chair Farce?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.