NRS stock classes/ RA Production classes

Leave the motor as stock as possible for your first rally. You'll have enough other things to worry about. Build the car, get it on stage, worry about making it faster the second time around.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Get a Galant VR-4.

http://omaha.craigslist.org/cto/4093502645.html

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/4147822821.html

http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4115175564.html

http://york.craigslist.org/cto/4151655001.html

http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/4130176062.html

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Quote
wvonkessler
Get a Galant VR-4.

http://omaha.craigslist.org/cto/4093502645.html

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/4147822821.html

http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4115175564.html

http://york.craigslist.org/cto/4151655001.html

http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/4130176062.html

See? They're out there. Get 2

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2013 09:52AM by john vanlandingham.

JV - the stroker cranks are stock OEM stuff, so if this guy has a shop that services DSMs helping him out, there's probably one for free sitting in a blown motor somewhere.

All that said - 1000% listen to the guys' advice on keeping things stock power wise. Reliability is way more important than anything else when starting out so you can focus on learning. I'm all about crazy overbuilt stuff when it comes to PPIHC, but with all my experience racing up narrow twisty mountain roads, I got absolutely creamed when I went out to my first rally.

What do I rally you ask? 1996 BMW with a basically stock 328 motor...and it was awesome, epic fun. The car was plenty capable of doing much better, but I didn't want to write off a car by being fully committed to the notes right off the bat. Even though I've been using notes and working with the same navvie for quite a while, there's just something different about running roads on nothing more than jembas.

Seat time seat time seat time.

Dave

No mention of the mirages here? I personally like the size of those a little better than the galant. Never came AWD/turbo in the states.. but fixing that could be something your DSM shop might enjoy.

Also, if this is a DSM/Subaru shop make sure you've got their priorities in order. Are they doing they cage? Have they ever done a rally cage before? They are fairly different than your average track day setup or even what flies for most road racing.

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

wow. thanks, a lot to try and respond to.

First on the VR4's. I found one last night in a non-rust area (desert) for a great price. I'm going to work that one hard. Also, i'll look at those links you posted.

About the stroker. DaveK was right about the cranks. There are OEM mitsu cranks in the stroke needed for a 2.3. But, more importantly, I assume I'm buying a car with no motor, or a blown motor. and the cost difference isn't that much higher if i build it 2.0 or 2.3. If I start with a good stock motor, then I am happy to leave it alone early on if it seems solid. lastly, on the cost, for a motor that revs to like 5k, I really wouldn't go crazy. I did with my Evo' custom pistons/rods for a 2.4L that I rev over 8500rpm, but I definitely grasp how different this will be.

What's the later Evo turbos you are speaking of? In my living room i literally have a stock 8 turbo from my car in amazing shape. The TME turbo i mentioned is about the same size, but lighter weight wheels for spool.

I'll look into, and ask teh guys about this mysterious head you are talking about. it sounds good. Especially because, of all things, the DSM/GVR4 heads have bigger ports than an Evo 8/9.

I only know of the shop tuning 1 restricted motor. May have done more, but i only know of 1. Was a 1G DSM of all things. Had SP stickers.

And I think someone asked about the fab. 1 of the guys is a full time fabricator. It'll be the first rally cage I know that he has done for certification. When we do that part, I'll make sure he reads, and re-reads the rule book, and we'll work a local scrutineer.

Probably talking about the 7, 8, & 9 turbos. I've got a brand new 8 with the 10.5 housing and dual wastegates if you're in need of any others.

The TME is probably the hot sh!t for stock turbo, but these days I think those are getting fairly pricey. With loads of 8 & 9s in the US, finding stock turbos isn't that difficult, but most of the 9s seem to get converted into Greens, Reds, and Blacks or whatever else they're named these days.

Sounds like you're on the right track. If you do managed to pick up a GVR4, I've heard its best to disable the 4 wheel steering by pulling out the pump and making things solid in back. On the GVR4s I had, that mod was taken care of by rust...LOL

Dave

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Paddy1337
yeah. the damn radiator and intercooler rules were my two biggest concerns with the stock class. Radiator is obvious, but have you ever seen a DSM intercooler? tiny, uneless, and side mounted in a location that it can be caked over with mud.

Spending money was my worry with Open. everything is going to sound like a good idea. but i believe i can keep myself under control and concentrate on just safety and prep.

Hooookay, let the chiming in begin!

The stock radiator is fine, but obviously you should probably pop a new one in there for good measure. As I am sure you are aware, Talon's have a very specific setup for air entry/exit through the radiator. DON'T GET RID OF THE PLASTIC DUCTING IT IS THERE FOR A REASON!

Second, while I appreciate the concerns with the intercooler, who gives a f*&k? Your speed will come from keeping your foot down, not from the extra cooled air the motor gets.

Which leads me to my next point, everything you do is irrelevant unless you get a properly geared transmission. www.jackstransmissions.com. If you are going to waste your money (no offense, but building a talon from scratch is), then waste your money on building a LIGHT Talon designed for maximum occupant space, keep the motor stock with a good tune using dsmlink (or whatever they call it now), and put a bitchin' transmission in it.

I fit a Talon fine. With better cage design, it'd be even better. I am 5' 8" and 160lbs. We managed to fit Jeff, 6' and 250+ lbs into the passenger side comfortably but his seat was on the floor essentially.

Either way, you are competing with a ill-designed product that was meant for form, not function. The nose is long (not as bad as people whine about, but it is a big schnoz), you are going to bounce it off of stuff a lot. There is no way to get a better center differential (viscous or welded). I don't know if a clutch type front LSD is available, in which case I'd worry about the rear.

Will you be competitive? Brendan Reeves can come in the top 5 in north america in a dinky fiesta. Being competitive is about your driving. Having a reliable car gets you to the finish and helps you gain the most experience. I would not build a Talon, but there is nothing inherently wrong with them when starting out. BUT you will be disadvantaged. When I'm spending $20k+ per year racing, I don't want to hobble myself "just because".

If anything, you should buy an already built talon for stupid cheap, then do the upgrades I mentioned (or get the shop you mentioned to do it).

And finally finally... I don't trust anyone but OEM's to build motors. So many times have I saw "built motors" with all the wiz-bangiest parts on them blow up for no good reason. Is it the tune? Maybe. If that's the case, invest in proper tuning, not some joe-schmoe tunerz shop whose all "you make A KAJILLION HP at 6000rpm!!1111!!".

Que JVL in 3...2...1...

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alosix
No mention of the mirages here? I personally like the size of those a little better than the galant. Never came AWD/turbo in the states.. but fixing that could be something your DSM shop might enjoy.

Also, if this is a DSM/Subaru shop make sure you've got their priorities in order. Are they doing they cage? Have they ever done a rally cage before? They are fairly different than your average track day setup or even what flies for most road racing.

Like Mirage?
Why?
The GpA cars had fully adjustable camber, castor, and toe on all wheels, thus they could make a 98" wheelbase car stable at HIGH speeds.

WE don't, and he doesn't, so a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONGER car with about 102" wheelbase is BETTER-ER.
That's the same reason I like Le-gassy, Xratty and 240 Volvo..

ALL US and Canajian events are from medium fast to flat fawking crazy fast...
Don't you understand that one fact? The same weekend that a absolutely non-person in the WRC Block was averaging 80mph at Maine, the real good WRC drivers are in Finland on the faster roads in the whole series, and they were on the fastest stages averaging 73-74mph...

Our roads are fast so stability for us hose head type numbskull amateurs without fully adjustable camber and castor is paramount importance.

Like? We have to one day be able to move beyond simple "I like...______" to
"this car has advantages over that _____________, so maybe I should choose what has advantages.."

(And I heart the Evos especially 4-5-6 (all really prior to the gross huge Dead fish mouth versions)

Just like in the Ford world I may "like' Escort Cosworth but it doesn't enter into the picture for a rally car because there is no advantage over a Sierra of the same spec.
Not on GRAVEL, not in North America...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
HiTempguy

Second, while I appreciate the concerns with the intercooler, who gives a f*&k? Your speed will come from keeping your foot down, not from the extra cooled air the motor gets.

my concern was purely from a reliability standpoint. an intercooler made useless my mud/location will lead to skyrocketing AITs, and potential blown motor.

Thanks for the advice. Tim Zimmer is who i hope to have build this trans. Shep did all my Evo transmissions, but i've been less than amazed by them.

also, who has bought a car from a stranger, many many states away? I'm almost surely buying the GVR4 i found if I can get myself feeling comfortable with the sale. I've only ever bought cars in person my whole life. I'm less concerned with getting the car and finding something not as advertised, more concerned with losing a couple grand.

Is the car in good enough shape for a fly and drive?

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This isn't floor mat anarchy

Quote
Paddy1337
also, who has bought a car from a stranger, many many states away? I'm almost surely buying the GVR4 i found if I can get myself feeling comfortable with the sale. I've only ever bought cars in person my whole life. I'm less concerned with getting the car and finding something not as advertised, more concerned with losing a couple grand.

I did exactly that with a GVR4. Drove to AZ, ~10-12 hours or some such nonsense. The car wasn't perfect but I convinced myself it was good enough. Never really was happy with the car and swore I'd never do it again...luckily I got t-boned in the car 2 months later in a snowstorm on the way to watch WRC with some buddies. Traded the car for the cage in my GTX, so I guess it all worked out.

You're building a race car from a street car, so if you go in knowing all your after is a good shell, all the other stuff probably doesn't matter all that much.

Dave

If you're the trusting sort, you could always post here, SS, etc. saying "I'm looking at a car in City, State. Is anybody close that could go take a look for me?"

If I was buying a car long-distance, I'd definitely be leaning on the folks I "know" from forums.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

For the fly and drive, it'd be taking a chance. engine had recently been redone with water pump, timing belt, etc. but that can be a bad thing if not done right. And we're talking Las Vegas to NC. I don't think i could even get the time off work to do it this month.

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Aaron Luptak
If you're the trusting sort, you could always post here, SS, etc. saying "I'm looking at a car in City, State. Is anybody close that could go take a look for me?"

If I was buying a car long-distance, I'd definitely be leaning on the folks I "know" from forums.

Not a bad idea. There is a guy i recently sold Evo cams to in Las Vegas, and he's retired USAF (me being active USAF). I sold him the cams super duper cheap. I bet i can get him to go take a look. But, my biggest worry is just the purchase part. I got to get him money to get the car shipped, while also protecting myself if he doesn't ship the car.

Just realized i didn't answer your question earlier, JV. I'm Air force, stationed at Ft Bragg.