Great Lakes a great place for archeologists!

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NoCoast

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john vanlandingham
By that logic then grant most of the home building in the 90s and 00ies in USA was "fake", too. Ghost cities. Its called foreclosures. And it did the same thing.

The thing about the US home building was that the housing prices were at least close to a level that people could afford.

derp! derp! Um ehhhh if they prices were at least close, then why have there been millions of forclosures since the bubble burst?

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The bigger problem with the housing market in the US is that everything was inflated by speculation and imaginary belief that everything will increase.

Well some might say that a big part was that the whole bubble HERE was financed by credit, that a huge % of people refinanced and "cashed out" to buy consumer shit ---contrasting to the Chinese building frenzy which is institutional investments cause the Chinese work and SAVE, meaning banks and institutions have been literally bulging with cash that they need to get rid of just to make room for more savings.

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Wages and home values. Too many people bought a house with the mentality that they would get something at the top of their budget, live in it for a few years and pay interest only, and then sell it at a profit and move into an even nicer home. Which is the WRONG way to think of home ownership. It should be a lifetime investment and something you want to live in long term.

I agree but this is Consumer America, everything EVERYTHING has been commodified and many weak minds have fixated their minimal minds on stupid concepts they are fed off the AM radio about "the magic of the marketplace". Your house, your car, your brain your girlfiends quim, your teeth are all "investments!!!!!"

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I love our house and the fiance owns it and we'll likely never sell it. We are looking to buy either land or a home in the mountains in a few years. I want to buy land so I can build my own cabin.

Yeah well you grew up out in the boondocks. And inland. Never lived really farther than 8-10 miles from sea, sound or ocean.

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Not saying all development isn't necessary. But they are obviously overdeveloping on a scale that is well beyond a few suburban neighborhoods in Florida.

Clearly note but the PROPERTIES were relatively unimportant, the THINGS. That some contractor makes a few hunnert Thou is piddly, the real billions were made on theplaying "tading" bullshit that assholes cook up a 'concept' out of thin air, then amongst themselves agree to a fiction that this shit they simply invented a term for is worth something, then they find greedy idiots who want to buy and sell this "commodity" and the original assholes makebillions on the churning of sales.
As I have said and I'm serious 7.62 x 54mm thru a few dozen speculators in major urban areas and you'd quickly see more responsible marketing, and maybe even houses the size people want and need. (Just like idiot HUGE SUV where there's way more profit, theres way more profit in a trophy MacMansion than a nice little sensible 1300 sq/ft house.-)

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john vanlandingham
What about Boeing exports?
Grain?
rally parts? I export rally stuff and its growing. (I'm requested to find skid devices for teaching sideways-ness)

Aircraft and spacecraft exports to China: 5.8 billion.
Oil seeds and oleaginous fruits: 11 billion.[/quote]

Not oil seeds WHEAT!!!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The main reason for millions of foreclosures is that close means not quite enough. Banks were willing to loan people money for houses well out of their price range.
People think, well I can afford this payment now and I'll sell the house at a profit before the payment skyrockets and buy another house and within a few years I'll be a millionaire.
There's also the thought that 'next year I'll make even more money'.
We won't get into the ridiculousness of car payments and the excessive amount of money spent on depreciating assets. I think the rally car is about the only car I've ever owned that I won't make money on. Then again, I don't ever want to sell it. Wreck it and build another... Maybe.

The first time I went to Portland in 2005 I had what I thought was an aneurysm upon landing. Massive headache, blood flowing into my mouth from my sinus cavity, etc. All that pressure down there is not good for me. Give me altitude and mountains! I love our 1300 square feet!

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john vanlandingham
As I have said and I'm serious 7.62 x 54mm thru a few dozen speculators in major urban areas and you'd quickly see more responsible marketing, and maybe even houses the size people want and need.

Wow, that's not extremist at all. More amusingly, to take a redneck side to it. "So uh, why ya gotta be using the commy ammo size?"

Seriously? You can't figure out why people want to carry a gun, yet you promote shooting people? Nice. Everyone knows extremists suck just as much as opportunistic lawyers praying on easily manipulated people.

Grant has it right. The banks were loaning for people they had NO business loaning to.

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Dazed_Driver

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john vanlandingham
As I have said and I'm serious 7.62 x 54mm thru a few dozen speculators in major urban areas and you'd quickly see more responsible marketing, and maybe even houses the size people want and need.

Wow, that's not extremist at all. More amusingly, to take a redneck side to it. "So uh, why ya gotta be using the commy ammo size?"

Seriously? You can't figure out why people want to carry a gun, yet you promote shooting people? Nice. Everyone knows extremists suck just as much as opportunistic lawyers praying on easily manipulated people.

Grant has it right. The banks were loaning for people they had NO business loaning to.

"As you would have others do unto you so shall ye do unto them" is my guiding principle.
Any reasonable person knows that those people who believe they are untouchable, and effectively above the law have shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are willing destroy the livelihoods, careers, savings even the lives of quite literally millions of people for more profit.
There is obviously no limit to many people's greed to the point it is sociopathic.
So like other sociopaths who are untreatable (and yet at worst murder rape, kill only a few people) a few rounds into a few un-human speculators might work wonders for raising the awareness of the herds of parasites that there may sometimes be a personal consequence to their devastating behavior...

And not just speculators, there would be plenty of room against the wall for lawyers and lobbyists, people who know fully what they are doing is so far beyond just greedy and bad that it is truly evil.


But I wouldn't expect a guy like you to understand any of this.

as for extremists, I say "KILL ALL EXTREMISTS"

Don't you have a rally car that needs working on?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Actually, I have friends to meet up with, two businesses to run, school work to do, and THEN I have a rally car to work on.

Whether or not someone wants to have more profit shouldnt dictate whether they are "good" or "evil"

Someone has to BUY their products.

If the parents of the people who are buying the products taught their children to think for themselves, there wouldn't be much of an issue here. But instead, everyone is taught to buy bigger houses for the tax write off, which causes them to have to work harder, longer hours, for slightly more pay, and pushed them into a higher tax brackets, and actually reduces their incomes. Now, with their lower income and their more expensive house, they get fucked, foreclose on the the loan they shouldn't have been approved on (which they shouldn't have even gone AFTER).

My cardboard box under the I5 overpass is just the right size and just the right price.

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NoCoast
Too many people bought a house with the mentality that they would get something at the top of their budget, live in it for a few years and pay interest only, and then sell it at a profit and move into an even nicer home. Which is the WRONG way to think of home ownership.

Because the nicer house wouldn't also appreciate in value during the same time. Somehow.

And then they're left holding a massive debt, which gets worse when everyone else realizes that it's a dumb game and they stop speculating.

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Racinkid13
My cardboard box under the I5 overpass is just the right size and just the right price.

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?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always">

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Dazed_Driver
.......for slightly more pay, and pushed them into a higher tax brackets, and actually reduces their incomes.

Here are published "single" rates for 2011 I pulled from some website:

10% Bracket $0 – $8,500
15% Bracket $8,500 – $34,500
25% Bracket $34,500 – $83,600
28% Bracket $83,600 – $174,400
33% Bracket $174,400 – $379,150
35% Bracket $379,150+

Please show me an example of how earning more money results in you taking home less money than someone who earns less than you. Lets assume that people are actually paying the rates and not earning income from dividends or other things that are taxed at a lower rate, or have massive deductions/write-offs. There's also the whole AMT mess which may end up stiffing some people who might've been able to take advantage of some big breaks/deductions.

To give an example:

$34,500/yr = $850 on first $8500, $3900 on next $26000 = $4750 or 13.8%
$40,000/yr = $850 on $8500, $3900 on $26000, $1375 on $5500 = $6125 or 15.3%

Sure, the person making $40k/yr pays a higher percentage of their income in taxes, so they are paying more tax dollars and also take home more money.

What amazes me is that there are people out there who think once you're in the 25% bracket you are taxed 25% on everything. That's not the way it works, you pay on the lower rates for the first bit of income you get, and you move up to the next tier, then the next, etc. as you hit the dollar limit of each tier.

Dave

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DaveK
What amazes me is that there are people out there who think once you're in the 25% bracket you are taxed 25% on everything. That's not the way it works, you pay on the lower rates for the first bit of income you get, and you move up to the next tier, then the next, etc. as you hit the dollar limit of each tier.

I've always been amazed that there are people out there who can't even do their own taxes much less understand. Then again, I'm kinda anal about shit like that. I could within about ten minutes tell you how much money I will owe or get back this year. Then again, I can also pretty quickly tell you exactly how much money I spend on everything. Bowling alley purchases might actually be under a grand this year for the first time in the past four or five.
On a side note, saw a new Michigan bowling ball company, DV8, this weekend at the Pro Bowling Association's World Series of Bowling. Just happened to be at the same place we were staying.
Second side note... Fuck Las Vegas.

I'll join the group who is amazed at the lies of "if you get pushed into a higher tax you get less take home, compared to before a raise"

Also the whole Housing interest as a tax deduction is Very bad for our society.
the more income you have , the more it benefits you (but the less you need subsidy because you are making more)

It also drives up housing costs, which only serves to gobble up a bigger % of monthly income, and thus reducing a home owner (loan owner)'s ability to spend money on things that actually Drive the economy...

We need to phase that out, and we need to get rid of loops holes and other write offs.

here's 1 simple idea (that would never become law) if your stock/dividend income is higher than your W2 income, it shall be taxed under the personal income charts. (that would tax people like warren buffet fairly, instead of them making millions at a 15% tax rate)

Actually a big array of people benefit under the mortgage interest write off.
Individuals who otherwise might not be able to afford that house
Contractors building more houses
Contractors employees do the real building
Mills and suppliers of housey stuff
Road, sewer, water, electrical suppliers
Neighborhoods with higher individual home ownership are steadier, have better schools, have less crime, a less 'at risk".

And of course if we allow more people to "buy" on installment plans, for every 100K loaned out, some fat cat capitalist will make over 30 years well more than double that, maybe 3 times depending on the % rate..

EVERYBODY benefits.
That's why FHA was invented and why we had the GI Bill of Rights, and that is how we created a modern America with a HUGE! middle class, back when Government WAS involved in the market..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

your point, is my point.

If we got rid of the mortage interest deduction a good chunk of home buyers will not be able to buy at current prices. But they will still want homes. People will still need to sell their houses (empty nesters, moving for a job, etc)

so home prices drop.

overall lower home prices = people spend money elsewhere. and money spent on housing is not very productive.

home builders , realtors, etc, everyone will be fine with lower home prices, it will just require an adjustment period (which we are already going through) might as well fix things now..

but don't worry, we won't, the Realtor / home builder lobbyists (and public opinion) won't allow things to change on this.

the title of this thread reminded me of this fun bit of humor:

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Old phone network found

After having dug to a depth of 10 yards last year, New York scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 100 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 100 years ago.

Not to be outdone by the New Yorkers, in the weeks that followed, California scientists dug to a depth of 20 yards, and shortly after, headlines in the LA Times newspaper read: 'California archaeologists have found traces of 200 year old copper wire and have concluded that their ancestors already had an advanced high-tech communications network a hundred years earlier than the New Yorkers.'

One week later, "Park Falls Herald," a local newspaper in northern Wisconsin reported the following: "After digging as deep as 30 yards in corn fields near Ashland, Ole Johnson, a self-taught archaeologist, reported that he found absolutely nothing.

Ole has therefore concluded that 300 years ago, Wisconsin had already gone wireless."

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---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

I few thoughts:

Home prices are meaningless unless you do not get a loan. If you get a loan, cash flow is everything.

High labor rates do not always equal high cost of goods, productivity is a major factor in the cost of the goods as well as other capital inputs. The USA is very productive and has very low capital costs.

Boeing is still the largest single exporter in the USA nearly 2% of all exports by value so we still build things here that get sold there.

Most news stories fail to use data (statistics) in a meaningful way. (That must drive Grant nuts)

D