Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

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HiTempguy
the easiest way (up to the limit an event can handle) for rallying to grow is still by more competitors. The cool thing is that the more people compete, the "fanbase" will naturally grow with it.

This is what I think. If a bunch of people get together doing something fun and interesting, others will take an interest in it and become fans and potential participants. Maybe even sponsors, the holy grail.

You can't focus on the sponsors and fans and neglect the participants. You can only put so many coats of nice bright paint on a house with a crumbling foundation before it collapses anyway. Maintain a good foundation and you can build anything on top of it.

Tim.

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HiTempguy
I personally am rapidly coming to the realization that the sport is only the sport and will only continue to be so as long as there are lots of grassroots teams competing. Based on the way either RA or CARS (or NASA) receives it's funding, the easiest way (up to the limit an event can handle) for rallying to grow is still by more competitors. The cool thing is that the more people compete, the "fanbase" will naturally grow with it.

Voila!

---

Grant Hughes

One thing that really really gets to me...
I was looking back through some emails looking for something yesterday. I came upon an email that I sent back in January highlighting some of the goals we had set for rallying in the coming years. It was sent to 30 current or former rallyists and a few enthusiasts that have contributed more than usual in the past. There was a whole plethora of questions and to do's and me asking for help or volunteers. Dave Kern responded and one other competitor responded and offered to help with logo design. That was it. Marriage, baby, school, work, cages, etc all prevented many of the goals from becoming reality. I think I've realized that the existing competitor base is a lost cause. They are all jaded or have moved on to other hobbies.
That is a problem in America as well. The idea of the "bucket list." Do a bunch of everything and get all these experiences but never actually become good at anything.

---

Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
I think I've realized that the existing competitor base is a lost cause. They are all jaded or have moved on to other hobbies.

Didn't most of 'em quit because they were getting smoked? On a serious note, I think the only thing needed from the mothballed competitors is an asking price for their expensive garage queens. Can you get a copy of Kevin's sheet? I've got the list of folks who've raced a CHCA event over the last 5 or so years. Maybe we can update that sheet with asking prices so a new generation of drivers can get out and compete.

While we've seen a good bit of "build" guys gain interest over the past year, I'm sure there are some in the "buy" camp that don't know where to look/start. The rallyx program not feeding into stage rally has been a bit of a barrier, but I think with crossover competitors at least a couple times a year has helped close that a bit.

Dave

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NoCoast
Marriage, baby, school, work, cages, etc all prevented many of the goals from becoming reality. I think I've realized that the existing competitor base is a lost cause. They are all jaded or have moved on to other hobbies.
That is a problem in America as well. The idea of the "bucket list." Do a bunch of everything and get all these experiences but never actually become good at anything.

That happens in a lot of sports or hobbies. I don't think that's only happening in rallying today. "Life" happens to some people, like kids, changing jobs, getting a different hobby, etc.

Some people like to experience a lot of different things. I can't blame them.

I imagine you have a lot of things you might want to try just once or twice and move on (I know I do). Maybe rally is one of those things for those past competitors that are no longer active. I don't think a "bucket list" is anything new, just popularized by a movie.

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Aaron Luptak
I'm pretty sure these guys are gonna save rally:

Ha, this is great.... trolling through the forums and I find a picture of the DG Rally Superfans! FYI: There was supposed to be a 6-pack but a few of the bottles didn't make it.

Now, I'm not sure my family and friends will save rally but I doubt they'll hurt it. I've been specatating, marshaling, rallying, spectating, marshalling, and (now back to) rallying for the last 15 years. Over that time, I've showed my family and friends what rally is and how to enjoy/embrace it. I talk them into going to far away places, deal with crappy weather, and make it an adventure. I show them video's of rally Finland and tell them "That's how you spectate."

Lucky for me, I'm racing again and I passed on the "itch" (at least to spectate) to them. After every event they have plans to make it better next time... chairs, cowbells, air horns, costumes, giant foam thumbs, swag, more beer. They always come back commenting on how other spectators complemented them on something they brought or did, talk about how people stand next to them "because they're fun", and sometimes moved because they are too enthusiastic/loud. They talk about the hole in wall stores and dive's they find out in the middle of nowhere. They have their own rally. They won't buy rally cars, they probably won't volunteer to orgainze at a high level, but they will be there having a good time and hopefully passing it on to others.

Unfortunately, if we stop showing up they will probably do the same. I'm sure this is the case for most teams. They have a small fan-base that might make an impact but they won't be there forever. The fact that they are willing to show up helps me try to get it together for the next event and if shit hits the fan, POR so we can at least make it through the spectator points.

When I go to Torq/Corr truck races I see lots of big $$ teams that come and go but I also see family teams that have been there forever and are sustaining a racing "habit". The same is true for roundy-rounds, drag racing, track racing... That's what I aspire to do, make it work for a long time. So for now I race junk, learn every race, save and beg for $, talk about rally, and make sure my "fans" are having fun. I would suggest others do the same.

I don't know if it will save rally but the more people its introduced to, the better chance it will keep going. I would suggest that we all be advocates, give out website address for events, invite unlikely people to go check it out, go outside of your "car-friend" circle and talk about it, put a rally poster up at work, put rally stickers and huge mudflaps on your wife's grocery-getter, anything to gain some interest or spark up a conversation. Step outside of the box, dig deep, No Fear. We can't rely on organizations or events to "save it". Afterall we're doing it for ourselves right?

---

Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com

Giant foam thumbs!! This will certainly save rally.

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HiTempguy
I personally am rapidly coming to the realization that the sport is only the sport and will only continue to be so as long as there are lots of grassroots teams competing. Based on the way either RA or CARS (or NASA) receives it's funding, the easiest way (up to the limit an event can handle) for rallying to grow is still by more competitors. The cool thing is that the more people compete, the "fanbase" will naturally grow with it.

That same conclusion took 100 miles for me way back at Wild West in April 1984.

A few days later was filling up and I heard downshifts and rubles and the stripey Datsun 510 that has started 1 minute ahead comes pulling up "Hey remember me? I was the guy who was stuck in that mudhole and you stopped and offered to pull me out. What the hell is that car?"

He had gotten results at home, lived nearby and so we drove over, had some beers and pored over the stage times stage by stage, figured out 1st place average speed, averaged the next three guys averges speed, then our speeds, more beers, and wondered "What can we do to get 150 car fields?"

150 cars would be an "event" even if there were just 5 fawkin Subies farting around and the rest were Golves, Volvos, Commodaha, Mazdas, Xratties, BMWs.

Just like in real life, the society really doesn't need the "elites", they're basically parasites living on the efforts of the rest. Screw 'em. They'll have their fan-bois who want to drop their shorts for them, that's just the way some people are.
The effort should be towards some unknown larger entry because then it self perpetuates. Almost like the old cell systm in Revolutionary days, each 3 person "cell" infects a person or 2 and they infect a person and it spreads...

Adam, my comments on the Canadian section on SS is not just because I have such a long connection---back to 1969---racing in Canada, but because I have used Canada as the closest "we" have to a functioning model of what "we" down here can aspire to.. or did until the current crop of either applaingly ignorant or horrible misguided peope volunteered for positions and who are glaringly obviously unfit and arrogant--as many have pointed out, they are all simply digging their heels in.
Fire them all.
The very fact that they concluded there was some grounds for banning 6 cylinder motors because of whatever shows they are all unfit for their leadership positions. That alone, much less all the other bullshit conclusions.

Vote in members who have their feet on the ground and understand MORE ENTRIES is No1 job, RETENTION is No2 job and the rest will take care of itself.
Eventually.

The rich will take care of themselves.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 06:34PM by john vanlandingham.

Damn John. This should be the motto.

"MORE ENTRIES is No1 job, RETENTION is No2 job and the rest will take care of itself."

---

Grant Hughes

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john vanlandingham
Vote in members

You do realize that across Canada, you are lucky if you get more than one person nominated for a position in any rally organization, right?

As I've harped on continously, there is not solid succession planning in place. Keith single handidly did more than anyone else over many years to make rallying out west (and Canada) what it is now. He'll disagree, but I've watched what he's done (considering he got me started in rallying 8 years ago). There are too few Keiths and too many people willing to sit back and let whatever happens happen.

Beyond that (taking a turn from this prior) from a completely theoretical standpoint, EVEN ON GRAVEL, a 300hp G5 car will walk a 150hp G2 car (or even a 200hp high strung close ratio box G2 car) from 100km/h on up. I've saw it with my own eyes. I'm talking straightline here guys, but from that NARROW viewpoint, it is true.

That doesn't mean I agree that the rule necessarily has any merrit. Especially the 6 cylinder rule, that was plain dumb. In the end though, the answer is clear:

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JVL
"MORE ENTRIES is No1 job, RETENTION is No2 job and the rest will take care of itself."

I'm sure plenty of folks will be happy to tell me why Will Orders vs. Chris D. isn't a pretty good illustration that a G5 car is faster than a G2 car....

And yes, I'm fully aware that an R2 fiesta really isn't exercising the G2 allowances 100%.

Just looking at stage wins
(with caveats:
* only counting stages they both finished
* not counting Olympus stages where it looks like Will ran before the stage was cancelled):

STPR
WO - 6
CD - 1

NEFR
WO - 7
CD - 4

Olympus
WO - 6
CD - 1

Total:
WO - 19 (76%)
CD - 6 (24%)

Is this a very selective set of numbers? You bet your ass it is. But individual stage wins seems like a pretty reasonable way to compare two different cars (and obviously, drivers). I don't know if Will and Chris are really that evenly matched as drivers - but it seems that they're both in the top 5% or so talent-wise, and both driving highly developed cars makes for a reasonable comparison.

(Just for the record, although I do feel that a G5 car should intrinsically be faster than a G2 car, I'm on board with CARS rule changes being completely counter to their stated goal of increasing participation and decreasing costs - by which I mean that I'm not a fan of 'em.)

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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NoCoast
Damn John. This should be the motto.

"MORE ENTRIES is No1 job, RETENTION is No2 job and the rest will take care of itself."

It has been for me since '84. Anything that might further that goal is good, anything that diverts energy and resources or artificially limits that goal= bad..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You glossed over the basics===who people are, where they learned their craft.
And didn't even mention a hugely vital component: years of experience...

You do know that there is fairly hefty entries in Oz State Championships all over, dontcha? It's a big Continent, about as big as the Lower 48, but 90% of the people are crammed onto the East Coast, and from mid point down round the corner to about Adelaide...So they have something we lack: density in the fields, depth..that is in the "normal people" fields....Their National series has been a shambles with thin entries for years----about since they got big fat heads and decided to go with Homologated cars which meant GpA---and instantly eliminated tons of drivers from a cost and avilability standpoint, then when they stupidly decided to make N4 the premier class---and OH! Snap! suddenly the entire National field was a parade of mostly shittily driven, boring Sububitchis and Misterburus---and nobody was interested..(Fuck me doesn't anybody pay any fawking attention to other countries rally scenes? This same thing has happened EVERYWHERE that they did the fawkin Homologated car requirement...again and again)

If you learn where there's depth, you learn good...
Could it be that Orders and the other guy are simply good drivers with more experience?

Could it be that Dupleiss isn't that good and pretty clearly hasn't been around in deep fields?


The fact that Orders and his mate in those really not too rad--and not that powerful as everybody repeats --with nobody ever seeing a dyno chart (maybe somebody asked him, maybe he has a fawking Web site with some claim---you boys do know dotcha that the Ozzies tales make Texas lies look amatuerish, dontcha?) ---did pretty good simply shows the "leaders " here drive shittily consdering all the money and hype expended.
If they were driving to 50% of the potential of their trick Subies, they'd be driving like we see people drive in some Northern European countries, or France---and they ain't driving no way like that.

Finally. Nobody held a gun to Dupliess' head to buy that car, he knows the roads in USA are all simple HP roads, and nobody forced Orders to choose a 20 year old Nissan..
Should we penalize Orders just because the other guy wanted to buy a modern shitbox thing?

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Aaron Luptak
I'm sure plenty of folks will be happy to tell me why Will Orders vs. Chris D. isn't a pretty good illustration that a G5 car is faster than a G2 car....

And yes, I'm fully aware that an R2 fiesta really isn't exercising the G2 allowances 100%.

Just looking at stage wins
(with caveats:
* only counting stages they both finished
* not counting Olympus stages where it looks like Will ran before the stage was cancelled):

STPR
WO - 6
CD - 1

NEFR
WO - 7
CD - 4

Olympus
WO - 6
CD - 1

Total:
WO - 19 (76%)
CD - 6 (24%)

Is this a very selective set of numbers? You bet your ass it is. But individual stage wins seems like a pretty reasonable way to compare two different cars (and obviously, drivers). I don't know if Will and Chris are really that evenly matched as drivers - but it seems that they're both in the top 5% or so talent-wise, and both driving highly developed cars makes for a reasonable comparison.

(Just for the record, although I do feel that a G5 car should intrinsically be faster than a G2 car, I'm on board with CARS rule changes being completely counter to their stated goal of increasing participation and decreasing costs - by which I mean that I'm not a fan of 'em.)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

[

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You do realize that across Canada, you are lucky if you get more than one person nominated for a position in any rally organization, right?

Yeah but that doesn't mean that dozens of people should be forced to spend collectively 10s of thousands of dollars if the one volunteer is obviously incompetent and unqualified, does it?

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As I've harped on continously, there is not solid succession planning in place.

Same here, only we don't even have a club structure on which to try and find recruits/victims. Back in the SCCA days it was buddy buddy nudge nudge deals. We had a National Tech Flunky who was so stupid and so dishonest it was unbelieveable (This is good---Charles Buren in Portland was hardheadedly flogging a real POS MR2 in my least favorite class "Pee"---and had popped like 3 4AGE Toiletta motors in rapid succession---now via telephone call, I had to call, there is no way to blow up cranks in Toilettas little 4AGE unless you're doing something really stupid---they don't make enough power to hurt themselves and they have a good oiling system---- I'd found he was just dropping junk yard motors in without peeking inside...Anyway, the National Tech Asshole writes on SS.com---mind you I said and Charles said P class "Well you should try and build a catch dealie with swinging doors around the oil pick up"
Right the dumb fuck National Tech Guy advises mod the sump in P class..

.. Later his driver mentioned his season plans which was to run National series in a car I've know since it was built back in 86----which was built by the biggest cheater ever in US history---( The guy who, with his brother---spent 5 days at the old VW plant in Pennsylvania stich welding, and strengthening 4 shells, which were then put back in the Production line for prime, paint and undercoating, I introduced that guy to sideways action in the woods, put him in touch with the guy who he'd co drive with for a couple of seasons--I know him, he frankly told me about the degree of cheating, ya know as casula, buddies talking)
Well stitch welding and reinforcing was not permitted in P class, and I wrote asking the driver if he realised that he had just blurted out that his "Pee" car was not eligible? I said better get ready for Gp2!
I didn't know how to do "Screen capture" or I would have save the PM that was longer than this full of "You disgusting pieces of shit cocksucking faggot you better not ever come to California or....."
From the co-driver, the National Tech Goon..

Now we have privately held corporations running things, zero chance for any input.

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Beyond that (taking a turn from this prior) from a completely theoretical standpoint, EVEN ON GRAVEL, a 300hp G5 car will walk a 150hp G2 car (or even a 200hp high strung close ratio box G2 car) from 100km/h on up. I've saw it with my own eyes. I'm talking straightline here guys, but from that NARROW viewpoint, it is true.

Sorry but I don't think you've seen either a well built 200 bhp Gp2 car or a 300 bhp Gp5 car, and either driven well.
I know I haven't in North America...
I have seen well done n.a. 230-260bhp 2wd cars driven well and I about shat myself..
Sorry but you need to get out in the world some to see some stuff....
You cannot talk theory about motors, like your poor Tech guy, you are out of your field..talking just motors without specs, with gearbox, final drive, weight is keyboard wanking...

Listen and learn (you're pissing away an excellenyt chance to learn--and not just about motors)

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That doesn't mean I agree that the rule necessarily has any merrit. Especially the 6 cylinder rule, that was plain dumb.:

The 6 cylinder is flat stupid, no polite way to say it. Only a wanker could take the step from "a feeling that m...more stroke blah blah" to a rule....FAWK!

The 2.0 limit for turbo is stupid. (turn the boost up, shove another 300cc in and that 2.0 is "like a 2.3"
The 32mm rule is DEMONSTRABLY stupid and GROUNDLESS as 20 years experience with restrictor motors shows to any dumbfuck who is supposedly interested in the tech side of rally cars.
Permitting race gas is stupid--sorry but pump gas is and must be safe and consistant--think of the potential for bazzilion dollar lawsuits if gas wasn't consistant, and bazzilions dollar fines from EPA etc.. It flat is consistant...it is bullshit the excuses, people want more potential power and some with essentially limitless money want to buy it. FAWK THEM, PUMP GAS FROM A COST AND LEVELLING pov.

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In the end though, the answer is clear
"MORE ENTRIES is No1 job, RETENTION is No2 job and the rest will take care of itself."

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
......
Back in the SCCA days it was buddy buddy nudge nudge deals. We had a National Tech Flunky who was so stupid and so dishonest it was unbelieveable...

Okay... you have my attention. Who are you talking about?

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john vanlandingham
Later his driver mentioned his season plans which was to run National series in a car I've know since it was built back in 86----which was built by the biggest cheater ever in US history---( The guy who, with his brother---spent 5 days at the old VW plant in Pennsylvania stich welding, and strengthening 4 shells, which were then put back in the Production line for prime, paint and undercoating.....

Same guy, or someone else?