What did I do On Kevin's, Houston's, Ian, and Alexs' rally Volvo 240s today?

Tim Taylor Wrote:

> Gussets are so version 2.0...here's the new shit:
>
>
>
> Designed for Volvo 240 but it can plug weld right
> into a Mazda 3 front knuckle after the stock strut
> tube is removed.
>


BIG improvement. That should be much stronger.

Before you go making chips, though, I might suggest making the clamp a little taller. The taller the clamp is, the less the bending forces on the strut tube are converted into buckling, crushing and crying.

Take a look at the pics John showed me of the clamp mount GroupN Ford stuff. Their strut had a BIG sleeve around the bottom 3 inches or so to prevent buckling in this super-high-stress area. Making the clamp taller is a more efficient way to accomplish the same thing.

Also, make sure you put a healthy radius on the sharp corner where the dummy strut (the bottom part) meets the overhanging clamp. All the forces of rally are conspiring to tear that joint apart.

Obviously this design is taking away a few inches of compression travel. Are you doing anything tricky at the other end of the strut to get it back? Top mounts that stick a few inches through the strut tower, for example?

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tim Taylor Wrote:
>
> > Gussets are so version 2.0...here's the new
> shit:
> >
> >
> >
> > Designed for Volvo 240 but it can plug weld
> right
> > into a Mazda 3 front knuckle after the stock
> strut
> > tube is removed.
> >
>
>
> BIG improvement. That should be much stronger.

Head to head FEA with the old version says 5 times stronger without accounting for any effect of the strut tube pressing strait onto the knuckle in the new design



>
> Before you go making chips, though, I might
> suggest making the clamp a little taller. The
> taller the clamp is, the less the bending forces
> on the strut tube are converted into buckling,
> crushing and crying.
>
> Take a look at the pics John showed me of the
> clamp mount GroupN Ford stuff. Their strut had a
> BIG sleeve around the bottom 3 inches or so to
> prevent buckling in this super-high-stress area.
> Making the clamp taller is a more efficient way to
> accomplish the same thing.


I was looking at that but you run into the limit on standard endmills at about 1.25 inches. The low volume CNC ones are going to stay about that long and the investment cast version we can still play with. If you talk a bunch of people into building Mazda3's we'll get there quicker. It is a 0.375" thick clamp around a 0.25" thick chromoly tube right now. That's not exactly factory soda can thickness.



>
> Also, make sure you put a healthy radius on the
> sharp corner where the dummy strut (the bottom
> part) meets the overhanging clamp. All the forces
> of rally are conspiring to tear that joint apart.
>

Fear not, I know all about stress concentrations. I'm a real engineer and on occasion I machine flight hardware for Lockheed.


> Obviously this design is taking away a few inches
> of compression travel. Are you doing anything
> tricky at the other end of the strut to get it
> back? Top mounts that stick a few inches through
> the strut tower, for example?

That depends on the car...everything is possible :-)

Tim

Pat I sent you a note, you gonna be at Doo Wops?
Kevvie and I are planning on being there 1 day.
Send a phone number.
Be there!.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

> > Take a look at the pics John showed me of
> the
> > clamp mount GroupN Ford stuff. Their strut
> had a
> > BIG sleeve around the bottom 3 inches or so
> to
> > prevent buckling in this super-high-stress
> area.
> > Making the clamp taller is a more efficient
> way to
> > accomplish the same thing.
>
>
> I was looking at that but you run into the limit
> on standard endmills at about 1.25 inches. The
> low volume CNC ones are going to stay about that
> long and the investment cast version we can still
> play with. If you talk a bunch of people into
> building Mazda3's we'll get there quicker. It is
> a 0.375" thick clamp around a 0.25" thick chromoly
> tube right now. That's not exactly factory soda
> can thickness.

0.25" tube? Damn, that's a hefty soda can!

> Fear not, I know all about stress concentrations.
> I'm a real engineer and on occasion I machine
> flight hardware for Lockheed.

Consider me reassured.

So what's the diameter of the little false imitation strut nub there? I'll measure the Mazda3 strut tomorrow.

-Dave

rallybrick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One suggestion is to add a soft rubber or fabric
> sleeve over the threads above the spring perch,
> inside the spring, like on the SAM coil overs off
> my car that I sent to you last year. I dunno if
> the 240 turbo rubber bellows will work with 50mm
> stuff. When I had to re-adjust the set of yours
> that came off Kevvie's car earlier this year,
> despite cleaning and blowing out the threads to
> prep for the adjustment, the fine threads still
> got crap stuck in them and almost seized up one of
> the spring perches. Maybe it's just the kind of
> dirt we have in Cali. I will need at least one
> replacement perch at this point.

Yeah, Moser had his jam on him at Desert Storm last year. John,
you might want to consider switching to perches that take a
coarser thread or something.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> BIG improvement. That should be much stronger.

Not should, it IS
>
> Before you go making chips, though, I might
> suggest making the clamp a little taller. The
> taller the clamp is, the less the bending forces
> on the strut tube are converted into buckling,
> crushing and crying.

I think you understand now that I have been working from existing examples up to the offset deal on these Volvo struts, and there it was to enable the boys to use the full range of stock alloys so with the larger spring OD I needed to do something
>
> Take a look at the pics John showed me of the
> clamp mount GroupN Ford stuff.

That was firstt run of JVAB stuff three or 4 years ago.

Their strut had a
> BIG sleeve around the bottom 3 inches or so to
> prevent buckling in this super-high-stress area.

It is also a LOCATING collar

> Making the clamp taller is a more efficient way to
> accomplish the same thing.

Beg to differ, a simple stright collar is a lot easy to make, it also locates, serves 2 functions, it's better
>
> Also, make sure you put a healthy radius on the
> sharp corner where the dummy strut (the bottom
> part) meets the overhanging clamp. All the forces
> of rally are conspiring to tear that joint apart.

Yep
>
> Obviously this design is taking away a few inches
> of compression travel. Are you doing anything
> tricky at the other end of the strut to get it
> back? Top mounts that stick a few inches through
> the strut tower, for example?

Haven't had to try and convince anybody to do that yet, the 40mm stuff I can specify travel and hence overall length of the strut and the issue has been getting stuff short enough to go in with the limits of stock CVs and driveshafts.

With the Volvos we went a smidge long only because of the offset and clamp being separate, the combined offset/clampy thang save space and so is much better, Tim gets credit for seeing the nice way to combine the two, and that's what we made THIS forum to help facilitate things like this 4-5 way cooperation--rather than the bitch-fest that is the other forum.
>
> -Dave

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

hoche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rallybrick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One suggestion is to add a soft rubber or
> fabric
> > sleeve over the threads above the spring
> perch,
> > inside the spring, like on the SAM coil overs
> off
> > my car that I sent to you last year. I dunno
> if
> > the 240 turbo rubber bellows will work with
> 50mm
> > stuff. When I had to re-adjust the set of
> yours
> > that came off Kevvie's car earlier this
> year,
> > despite cleaning and blowing out the threads
> to
> > prep for the adjustment, the fine threads
> still
> > got crap stuck in them and almost seized up
> one of
> > the spring perches. Maybe it's just the kind
> of
> > dirt we have in Cali. I will need at least
> one
> > replacement perch at this point.
>
> Yeah, Moser had his jam on him at Desert Storm
> last year. John,
> you might want to consider switching to perches
> that take a
> coarser thread or something.

I do suggest that when people have the height/preload they are happy with that they do some rounds of duct tape round the junction of the lower seat and strut body.
I used that thread so that my lock rings and seats will interchange with existing Bilstein stuff, rather than making 2 sorts of seats.
We've loosened up the tolerances a bit as the growth due to the anodizing and Zinc plate has been better accounted for.

>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> 0.25" tube? Damn, that's a hefty soda can!

And its 4130 or sumpin Chrome-moly tube
>
> > Fear not, I know all about stress
> concentrations.
> > I'm a real engineer and on occasion I
> machine
> > flight hardware for Lockheed.
>
> Consider me reassured.

You think we were just guessing?
>
> So what's the diameter of the little false
> imitation strut nub there? I'll measure the Mazda3
> strut tomorrow.

I think your stuff is same as Focus so it should be 45.5mm ( I think)(its real late)
>
> -Dave

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So what's the diameter of the little false
> imitation strut nub there? I'll measure the Mazda3
> strut tomorrow.
>
> -Dave


The diameter is right at 2" but it can easily go up or down by 0.25" on the billet version depending on how much offset you need. The current offset is 1.2".

Tim

> > 0.25" tube? Damn, that's a hefty soda can!
>
> And its 4130 or sumpin Chrome-moly tube

4130, 4140, whatever it takes...

> > > Fear not, I know all about stress
> > concentrations.
> > > I'm a real engineer and on occasion I
> > machine
> > > flight hardware for Lockheed.
> >
> > Consider me reassured.
>
> You think we were just guessing?

Well, actually, based on version 1.0, yea, that is kinda what I thought.

> > So what's the diameter of the little false
> > imitation strut nub there? I'll measure the
> Mazda3
> > strut tomorrow.
>
> I think your stuff is same as Focus so it should
> be 45.5mm ( I think)(its real late)

Turns out its 52.04mm +/- 0.09. The clamp has FoMoCo cast right into it, so I suspect the Focus is the same.

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Turns out its 52.04mm +/- 0.09. The clamp has
> FoMoCo cast right into it, so I suspect the Focus
> is the same.
>
> -Dave

Metric...dude you're so screwed.

Yeah, so no problem. That size stub will accommodate offsets out to a little over 1.25" That's 31.75mm which should be plenty to get 50mm struts in there. (John would know better I've never been under a Fucus or a 3 to measure) How about a drawing with the profile of those 626 wheels and we'll figure out what it needs.

Tim

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I do suggest that when people have the
> height/preload they are happy with that they do
> some rounds of duct tape round the junction of the
> lower seat and strut body.
> I used that thread so that my lock rings and seats
> will interchange with existing Bilstein stuff,
> rather than making 2 sorts of seats.
> We've loosened up the tolerances a bit as the
> growth due to the anodizing and Zinc plate has
> been better accounted for.
>

Ah, that makes sense. I didn't realize you were using
the stock Bilstein perch thread. Yeah, it probably was
the anodizing etc gumming things up a little bit.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

> > Turns out its 52.04mm +/- 0.09. The clamp
> has
> > FoMoCo cast right into it, so I suspect the
> Focus
> > is the same.
> >
> > -Dave
>
> Metric...dude you're so screwed.

Oh shit! Do you have metric tooling? We might have to redesign the whole thing!

-Dave

I'm all confused and reading stuff out of order...

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eyesoreracing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Take a look at the pics John showed me of
> the
> > clamp mount GroupN Ford stuff.
>
> That was first run of JVAB stuff three or 4
> years ago.

Well, John, if I'm mistaking your stuff for factory GroupN stuff, I guess you pretty much have to take that as a compliment.

> Their strut had a
> > BIG sleeve around the bottom 3 inches or so
> to
> > prevent buckling in this super-high-stress
> area.
>
> It is also a LOCATING collar

Well, yea, but locating collars are easy. Hell, you only need a tiny little metal booger to keep it from sliding down too far if you just wanted it to be a locating thingy. Being a strut strengthening monster ring thing is way cooler.

> > Making the clamp taller is a more efficient
> way to
> > accomplish the same thing.
>
> Beg to differ, a simple stright collar is a lot
> easy to make, it also locates, serves 2 functions,
> it's better

Well, ok, it's a lot simpler for me if its all one part, since I'm not actually making it. And if you're making 600 bajillion of them, making one part stronger is better than making two parts. You're right, though, when we're talking rally quantities. Guess I need to break that big car company mentality...

-Dave

Tim Taylor Wrote:

> Yeah, so no problem. That size stub will
> accommodate offsets out to a little over 1.25"
> That's 31.75mm which should be plenty to get 50mm
> struts in there. (John would know better I've
> never been under a Fucus or a 3 to measure) How
> about a drawing with the profile of those 626
> wheels and we'll figure out what it needs.
>
> Tim

It looks like I'll have 6.25mm clearance between the tire and front spring with the 626 wheels, Only 1.25mm with Millenia wheels.

Bigger problem with putting 50mm struts in is the fact that the strut clamp is only 52mm. So even if I keep things straight, I'm still going to have to make some extension that welds to the bottom of the strut tube and lifts the functional bits above the clamp.

-Dave