VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??

What motor/spec in the mk3? Budget?
https://drivesport.ca/
http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

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ElectroTech
What motor/spec in the mk3? Budget?
https://drivesport.ca/
http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

paid for the car but haven't received it, believed to be near stock 2.0L ABA. For now I want to put money into the trans, also believed to be stock except diff bolts. Could do $2k max for now, which doesn't leave much for diff and 3,4,5, assuming FD is probably 3.63, yuck.

EDIT: next year I can go 16v or aba T but this year it is about getting the trans just a little bit better, and a LSD.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2018 08:56AM by Frank Gossett.

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ElectroTech

http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

Don't see the gear ratios listed on their site for the gear sets, am I missing something?

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Frank Gossett

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ElectroTech

http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

Don't see the gear ratios listed on their site for the gear sets, am I missing something?

Yeah.

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d. RC043

5 speed Close ratio dog engagement gearkit
10/29 – 15/34 – 20/36 – 24/35 – 28/34
with needle roller bearings and final drive ratio among our products range: 14/59 or 19/70.

Most of the world doesn't quote ratios, they give ya toof counts

02A so
l...........................2.9
ll..........................2.26
lll.........................1.8
lV.........................1.45
V..........................1.21

So multiply that by final drive for overall..

Going from long practice and thinking a 2,0 with so poop that will rev to at least 7000
an overall top gear ratio somewhere areound 5,0 to 5,1 has always been what everybody uses.
Miraculously 4,21 final gives you 5,10...

Ana amazingly their 14/59 works out to 4,21....

2.9 x 4,21 gives 12.18...a very nice 1st gear ratio--if the motor has some compression and make a good POP.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2018 03:49PM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham

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Frank Gossett

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ElectroTech

http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

Don't see the gear ratios listed on their site for the gear sets, am I missing something?

Yeah.

Quote

d. RC043

5 speed Close ratio dog engagement gearkit
10/29 – 15/34 – 20/36 – 24/35 – 28/34
with needle roller bearings and final drive ratio among our products range: 14/59 or 19/70.

Most of the world doesn't quote ratios, they give ya toof counts

02A so
l...........................2.9
ll..........................2.26
lll.........................1.8
lV.........................1.45
V..........................1.21

So multiply that by final drive for overall..

Going from long practice and thinking a 2,0 with so poop that will rev to at least 7000
an overall top gear ratio somewhere areound 5,0 to 5,1 has always been what everybody uses.
Miraculously 4,21 final gives you 5,10...

Ana amazingly their 14/59 works out to 4,21....

2.9 x 4,21 gives 12.18...a very nice 1st gear ratio--if the motor has some compression and make a good POP.

Ah that explains it. I have an 020 and the ratios aren't listed except in small type on the overview page, not on the page that shows a picture of only the gear set.
so 11/30 16/32 19/32 21/30 and 23/29 so: 2.72, 2, 1.68, 1.43, 1.26
so gears = 2466euro
FD = 752Euro and LSD = 1453 Euro.
Total 4671E which is 5450USD, then 10% off, plus shipping and someone to put it in the trans.

UGH. In two years or more due to budget....

Thanks for your help JVL

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Frank Gossett

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john vanlandingham

Quote
Frank Gossett

Quote
ElectroTech

http://www.bacciromano.com/?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&mar=9 (Mention Rally Anarchy for a 10% discount)

Don't see the gear ratios listed on their site for the gear sets, am I missing something?

Yeah.

Quote

d. RC043

5 speed Close ratio dog engagement gearkit
10/29 – 15/34 – 20/36 – 24/35 – 28/34
with needle roller bearings and final drive ratio among our products range: 14/59 or 19/70.

Most of the world doesn't quote ratios, they give ya toof counts

02A so
l...........................2.9
ll..........................2.26
lll.........................1.8
lV.........................1.45
V..........................1.21

So multiply that by final drive for overall..

Going from long practice and thinking a 2,0 with so poop that will rev to at least 7000
an overall top gear ratio somewhere areound 5,0 to 5,1 has always been what everybody uses.
Miraculously 4,21 final gives you 5,10...

Ana amazingly their 14/59 works out to 4,21....

2.9 x 4,21 gives 12.18...a very nice 1st gear ratio--if the motor has some compression and make a good POP.

Ah that explains it. I have an 020 and the ratios aren't listed except in small type on the overview page, not on the page that shows a picture of only the gear set.
so 11/30 16/32 19/32 21/30 and 23/29 so: 2.72, 2, 1.68, 1.43, 1.26
so gears = 2466euro
FD = 752Euro and LSD = 1453 Euro.
Total 4671E which is 5450USD, then 10% off, plus shipping and someone to put it in the trans.

UGH. In two years or more due to budget....

Thanks for your help JVL

Now you see why I suggest the cars and the builds I suggest...I have 5 T5 trannys in the garage I pad $75, $50, $50, and $0 for with GOOD ratios--ecellent really for a 2,0 to 2,3 turbo car>
I have I don't even know but 4-7 Toyota 8" ring and pinion sets..Highest was $75 for the whole diff..
With a LSD...

Just that alone puts a guy ahead thousands...versus ANY FWD car..

FWD will work just the same and if you drive it hard, like Lemme see...My best place overall was a 3rd OA on a National stage...37s behind the National Chamipinion for that year--it was funner than shit..
But the cost..

Those 3 simple things..Borg Warner T5, Toyota diff and gears and broad powerband..
That's more than enough for top 6-8 in so called Nationals...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
[...] I have 5 T5 trannys in the garage I pad $75, $50, $50, and $0 for with GOOD ratios--ecellent really for a 2,0 to 2,3 turbo car>

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

You have 4 T5 with good ratios in the garage.

Dibs on one of them.

And if you don't cooperate, I'll pee on it!

---

Ask for work.
If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

- Emma Goldman

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john vanlandingham
Just that alone puts a guy ahead thousands...versus ANY FWD car..

FWD will work just the same and if you drive it hard, like Lemme see...My best place overall was a 3rd OA on a National stage...37s behind the National Chamipinion for that year--it was funner than shit..
But the cost..

Those 3 simple things..Borg Warner T5, Toyota diff and gears and broad powerband..
That's more than enough for top 6-8 in so called Nationals...

John, Sorry to have missed this but what car are you advocating? Volvo 240? I already bought a golf darnit! I don't know how to drive a RWD yet. heck I might not really know how to drive a FWD, we'll see in 6-8 months.

First see if you can figure out if any work has been done to the tranny at all. I'm not familiar with the car, but I guess it has some rally history? If the transmission is completely stock, for $2k budget I would start with a plate type limited slip differential (Gripper) and a shorter final drive - something in the 4.81 range. MTS Motorsports had decent prices on final drives, but it looks like their website is currently down.

This combination will make a huge difference over a stock tranny. I almost recommend doing one event with a stock gearbox first so you can fully appreciate what a difference it makes! I rallied with this type of setup (4.81 final drive and lsd) for about ten years and had a lot of fun.

I currently have a Bacci Romano gearset with the VWMS 8v ratios and a 4.46 final drive. I purchased it a couple of years ago thanks to the Rally Anarchy discount Electrotech negotiated and a more favorable exchange rate at the time. This is a true close-ratio gearbox, and as Josh points out upthread, the big advantage is minimal rpm drop after you upshift. You're always in the powerband, and it is glorious. But it is not cheap; the final drive + plate diff combo really gives you the best bang for the buck. My advice would be to spend a few seasons with that combo and get a feel for driving before going all out on a full gearset. The nice thing is you can always swap over the diff, and if you compromise on the final drive and get something like a 4.46 you can re-use that too. But it's not too hard to find a buyer for a used 4.81 if you start with that.

The gear ratios you mentioned above are for the 16v VWMS gearset, which is extremely close ratio. I think the 8v ratios work better unless your engine can rev beyond 7,200rpm.

For what it's worth, VW trannies are called 8v and 16v, but the differences are the size of the input shaft, the splines and mounting of fourth gear on the output shaft and the circlip that holds fifth gear. You can bolt an 8v tranny to a 16v engine as long as you use an 8v clutch. You can also install an 8v final drive in a 16v tranny if you swap fourth gear. With a mk3 020 you really have to pay attention. Despite being bolted to 8v engines, the transmissions have the larger input shaft just and different 4th and 5th, just like a mk2 16v. For everything you want to know about 020s, check out Broke's page: http://www.brokevw.com/ Make sure to check the code on the transmission when you get the car before you order any parts.

What events do you plan to run? Find out what kind of tops speeds people hit in similar cars, and work backwards from there on selecting a final drive. I can send you a spreadsheet to do the math if you like.

^^^ Erik states some good info and I'll add that there are a few other things to consider RE. Crownwheel ID / Diff OD choices, and gearbox casing selection.

Most of which is covered in the following linked thread. The last post indicates the early casing can be filed down to clear the 100mm output drive flange, but the later casings are cast differently to accommodate the larger flange, so best to use the newer case to start with, plus you'll also have A1 & A2 compatibility for the rear trans mount.

https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,103092,103135#msg-103135

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

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Erik Christiansen
First see if you can figure out if any work has been done to the tranny at all.

I should probably qualify my background so you know where I am coming from. I am familiar with the differences of various 020 gearboxes and engines, having turbo'd a few 1.8L 8v, nitrous,, cams etc, along with wiring/ecu work, as well as suspension stuff and welding.
What I am not familiar with is gearing for Rally.

I plan to see the car this weekend and drive it mid next week to check for how the trans and engine feels. The "builder" says he used some diesel ratios but does not recall any of the exact work he did since it was built in 2000. I am going to record RPM and speed to see if I can figure out the ratios and final drive.

Not sure which rally will be my first, just trying to get the car sorted and make it so it will finish an event.

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Frank Gossett

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Erik Christiansen
First see if you can figure out if any work has been done to the tranny at all.

I should probably qualify my background so you know where I am coming from. I am familiar with the differences of various 020 gearboxes and engines, having turbo'd a few 1.8L 8v, nitrous,, cams etc, along with wiring/ecu work, as well as suspension stuff and welding.
What I am not familiar with is gearing for Rally.

I plan to see the car this weekend and drive it mid next week to check for how the trans and engine feels. The "builder" says he used some diesel ratios but does not recall any of the exact work he did since it was built in 2000. I am going to record RPM and speed to see if I can figure out the ratios and final drive.

Not sure which rally will be my first, just trying to get the car sorted and make it so it will finish an event.

Very cool! Thanks for clarifying your background. Sounds like you know VW's really well. That will definitely come in handy.

Good idea to measure rpm and speed to figure out what ratios are in it. Keep in mind the speedometer might be off if it's not mated with the correct plastic speedo gear. A gps speedo phone app can work well, and is probably more accurate than the stock speedo anyway. I'm going to guess that by "diesel ratios" he means a 4.25 final drive, but your driving test will let you know for sure.

My philosophy for rally gearing is to figure out the maximum speed you think you'll ever see at a rally, and work backwards from there. For example, with my final drive, fifth gear, and tire size I am at 106mph at a redline of 7,200rpm. I hit that a few times at High Desert Trails last month (and honestly was wishing for just a few more revs). It's been over sixteen years since I did an east coast rally so maybe someone more local to you can estimate tops speeds out there. Once you get fifth gear set, then you'll want the rest of the gear ratios close enough to always be in the powerband. For the 8v VWMS gearset, I will always be above 5,000rpm after an upshift.

Welcome to rally!

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Erik Christiansen


Welcome to rally!

Thank you, I've been volunteering since the mid nineties and dreaming just as long. Now that I have a few pennies to rub together, I bought a car and I am starting to see what I don't know.
I have questions about which intercom to get, which computer to get, which helmet, etc? all this while on a budget. Just spent $700+ on a seat since I am a big guy, and that hurt.

Appreciate the help on gearing. Someone linked to a quaiffe gearset in Europe in another thread but I can't find it now. bummer. And MTS site is closed so I can't price anything from them.

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Frank Gossett
Just spent $700+ on a seat since I am a big guy, and that hurt.

Frank, always buy the stuff with ''best before'' dates last.

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Philippe Bellefleur

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Frank Gossett
Just spent $700+ on a seat since I am a big guy, and that hurt.

Frank, always buy the stuff with ''best before'' dates last.

Haha that sounds like you are telling to cut down on the food/beer! very good advice!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2018 05:32PM by Frank Gossett.