02-04 Civic SI rally worthy?
Posted by turoc
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
I plan on getting a daily driver sometime soon. I want a car that i can convert into a rally car after this season. Currently i am rallying a 87 GTI and depite all the little things we have 100 % finishing record. However little shit that never end are getting me fed up and frustrated. So i want something newish, fast and reliable. I ve been thinking of the Civic with the "graduate" shifter for a while. Most people i spoke to say i would have to redevelop the car. The car (at least chasis) has been successfully competing all over the world including in Finland. What are the pros & cons? How would you compare it to others like the Focus?
I spoke with Paul F. and one thing he did point out was me not to stick only to the civic but the RSX as well. Same chasis, better motor and same weight. Oscar rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
Tom B Tom B Godlike Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
If I was to step into a newer car it would be a Honda, ton of opportunities for other involvement, tons of aftermarket support, and a ton of knowledge out there. Although your fun to dollar ratio will be much higher in the GTi...I would make the upgrades there unless you have a really good ($$$$$$) reason to get the Honda
-Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
Thanks for your reply Tom!
GTI is fun as shit. Its just that it is limited. Like i mentioned i would like to compete this season with it anyhow. Just to go upto spec of the stock Honda i would have to dump plenty of money. Like you said Honda aftermarket is there and cheap. MK2s on the other hand are becoming scarce, even at junk yards. What i would like to do is get the car for less than 7K (3K ish you could get hit ones with salvage titles), slap some soooper bitchin JVABs, weld in a cage and install two seats. Drop in a FD and a diff and call it! So it wont be a whole lot of money. My main concern is would i have to redevelop everything like suspension and such? rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
Andrew_Frick Andrew Frick Elite Moderator Location: Greenville, SC Join Date: 05/18/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 684 Rally Car: Rally Spec Ford Focus |
One problem I have seen with the new Honda's on rally stages is over heating. The Acura RSX that races at NASA sometimes always seems to need more water in the radiator.
Why, not build a focus. Cheap to purchase, lots of rally parts out there for them. Lots of engine / power choices. The civic you decribed is basically what I have done with my focus at this point. Safety, suspension, updated brakes, and go racing. I have not even install the FD or LSD in the trans yet. |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
It was good talking to you before ss7. Correct me if i am wrong but isnt the focus and overweight Pig? They are not that cheap to purchase and the reason Burak is not running spec is the car had issues (at least for him) or potential down sides. I hope my selection will be between these two however i am leaning towards the civic at this point.
rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
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turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
Hey John, I am looking for a reliable daily driver with heat/ac/cruise control and other little things which will be converted to a rallycar. Like i said before i am getting sick and tired of fixing little things. As much as the devil (you in this case!) is tempting me to go with a Xr4ti or the ovlov i am looking for more options.
rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
Andrew_Frick Andrew Frick Elite Moderator Location: Greenville, SC Join Date: 05/18/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 684 Rally Car: Rally Spec Ford Focus |
It was nice talking with you as well. Congrats on getting to the end of the rally.
The focus is heavier than your golf but I think it is a little ways from being a pig. My focus with no attempt made at weight reduction other than removing the A/C system and some interior is 2,750# My car still have a functioning radio and speakers. That is pretty much spot on what an 02 Civic Si weighs from the factory. I think in P class rally trim the civic would be in the 2,900+# range. I believe Burak's complaint was with the forumula for the spec focus class not the base car. Suspension wise his car is still spec legal other than some reinforcements / boxing that he added to the rear suspension links. The nice thing about racing a focus is you can see what Burak and the spec foci racer break to make sure you have a competitive car from the outset. I am not sure there is as much knowledge about those Civcs. But back to original question. I do not know anything inherently wrong with racing a civic si hactch in rally. It already has the new 2.0L K motor does it not? I am sure it could be turned into an effective G2 car here in the US. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 02:36PM by Andrew_Frick. |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
Yeah the Civic has the K20 but not the same as the Type R/S. Its a 2.0 with 160 hp. The torque figure i am not sure of but Paul Fereira said it was slightly higher than the Type R. Upgrages are cheap. You could easily find FD and Diffs. In fact the stock FD is something like 4.7.
Burak is telling me to get a focus instead. His car is definetely nice and fast. He likes it as a base car thats for sure. However he had to redevelop it as well which also means someone did it for the rest. I just think it is a little under powered stock unless it s an SVT. Until i spoke with him i had no doubt i would go with a civic. But now i am a little confused? My concern with the civic is the chasis and suspension travel. Previous generations are known to be spaghetti and have a lack of suspension travel. In N3 trim this car does win its class. rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
turoc Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Hey John, I am looking for a reliable daily driver > with heat/ac/cruise control and other little > things which will be converted to a rallycar. Like > i said before i am getting sick and tired of > fixing little things. As much as the devil (you in > this case!) is tempting me to go with a Xr4ti or > the ovlov i am looking for more options. Get a street car and leave it as a stret car. I personally know you'd be better off keeping your Golf as a rally car cause you have it. As nice as the DURATEC motor is, to be CERTAIN of its reliability, I would want some steel rods rather than their powdered things, and the CAR itself NEEDS some strengthening and upgrading. The rear links and "trailing arm" things are flat stampings which are weaker than sheeeeet, the original spring position on the back is a huge pain, adding coilovers will take some cutting and welding, but worse of all WHEN you wanted to upgrade the final drive and LSD that'll cost you millions (of Turkish Lira) and a gear kit is even more millions. The Focus is a HEAVY LARGE CAR and with a normal aspirted motor it'll always be at a severe power to weight disadvantage, and upping the NA power will be costly, and will mandate closer ratios and short SHORT final drive---IF you really want the thing to scoot. THAT need for a close ratio box in a heavy high powered (and therefore peakier powerband) NA car is why I push turbo 2.3s like the Xratty or the Volvo. The motors make enough TORQUE that you don't NEED close ratios and the ring and pinions are under 150 bucks. ONEHUNDRED FIFTY RETAIL. At this point it would be more cost effective to run the Golf till you wad it up badly, and just FIX THE SHEET THATS WRONG, John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
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Tom B Tom B Godlike Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
why not just buy a different suspension for the rally car and put a few bucks into the motor?
-Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
Andrew_Frick Andrew Frick Elite Moderator Location: Greenville, SC Join Date: 05/18/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 684 Rally Car: Rally Spec Ford Focus |
John, your focus is a big heavy car is BS if you are comaring it to an Xr4ti. If you look at the cars side by side your math does not add up.
Both cars have the same wheel base. The focus has a slightly wider track, while being a narrower car overall. The focus was 200# lighter from the factory The focus is about 8-10" shorter depending on body style. The 2.3 focus motor makes plenty of torque and could be just as wonderful if you strap a turbo on it like an xr4ti. I will not argue with you on transmission costs and final drive ratio costs because they are more expensive for the focus but you can go quite fast with the standard ford stuff. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 04:17PM by Andrew_Frick. |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
I currently have Bilstein group As which are OK but tend to bottom out. Possibly get some JVABs. I am going to put in a 2lt block before the next event. Its not so much the power at this point but little things that never end. At sandblast besides the slipping clutch we had cooling/overheating issues and shift linkage problems. These will be corrected but somethings i fix bite me in the ass again.
rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
turoc Ozgur Simsek Elite Moderator Location: Brooklyn, NY Join Date: 06/07/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 561 Rally Car: working on a Veedub |
Both the focus and Xr are big & heavy compared to my golf. If they weigh roughly the same in race trim why not go with the XR since it produces more torque?
I personally just really dont wanna deal with little things. I also believe the focus and the golf are limited in terms of what can be done for more power unless you go forced induction. rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!! |
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